Hidden Truth/Hidden Truth.iso/data/genufo/genufo/alien/main_archive/j_upto_r/lazar.info.txt

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Subject: Bob Lazar info 1/10
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Date: 18 Nov 93 13:31:17 GMT
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ROBER LAZAR KLAS TRANSCRIPT

================================================================================
                (C) Copyright 1989 ParaNet Information Service
================================================================================

072/417 11 Nov 89 03:25:00
~From:   Michael Corbin To:
All Subj:   For Immediate Release
Attr:   ------------------------------------------------
November 10, 1989

     ParaNet  Information Service (Denver, CO)--This evening  saw perhaps an
unprecedented event in UFOlogy.  KLAS-TV in Las Vegas, Nevada  has  been airing
a UFO special during  the  evening  news which began on Monday dealing with the
UFO mystery and  cover-up. The series, which has been covered by ParaNet, began
its coverage with  a  history of UFOs beginning in the late 1940s  and  moving
forward  through  the  numerous sighting reports  to  the  cattle mutilations,
which was aired last evening.  As promised  at  the close of last evening's
show, George Knapp, a news anchorman  for Channel  8  in Vegas, stated that a
scientific  person  would  be featured on tonight's program who has claimed to
work at Area 51, the government's super-secret test range at Nellis AFB in
Nevada. Indeed,  quite a story was told by Robert Lazar, a physicist  who
claimed  that  he had worked on a project at  Area  51  involving flying disks
provided by alien intelligences.
     Over the last year, ParaNet has carried stories relating  to possible
involvement  with the government in  projects  of  this nature at the Nevada
test site.  Up to now, the stories have been of a very speculative nature.
Although the material presented by Robert  Lazar  remains unconfirmed, enough
information  has  been disclosed that ParaNet's large investigative staff in
Nevada  has started  an  intensive investigation into this  release.   It  is
interesting  to  note that Robert Lazar is an associate  of  John Lear  and
has been providing this information to Lear  over  the last  few  months.  Lear
has appeared on Channel  8  on  numerous occasions together will Bill Cooper
discussing Lear's famous  'ET Hypothesis.'   According  to  Lear,  Lazar  was
instrumental  in providing  Lear  with locations overlooking the test  site
which would  provide a good view of the objects as they flew  into  the night
sky.   Lear attempted to shoot video of an  object  as  it maneuvered  through
the night sky during  last  summer,  however nothing  was captured on the tape
of a substantive nature.   Lear also  relates  that his group was harassed by
a  Lincoln  County sheriff following his attempts to take the pictures.
     Below  is  a  transcript  of the  program  that  aired  this evening.
All paragraphs out of quotes are the narrator  of  the segment.   We were as
accurate as possible on the  transcription, however  there are a couple of
places where comments were  edited out due to inability to understand what was
being said.
     Further  reports  will be provided  as  information  becomes available.
===============================================================================

     We've  been  working  on  the  story  for  some  time....UFO researchers
claim that there is a secret government  within  our government.  Now this may
be hard to believe coming from the  UFO perspective,  but  we have learned that
Watergate  and  the  Iran Contra  scandal  that factions within our government
can  and  do pursue  their own hidden agendas outside of the law; outside  the
control of the Congress or the knowledge of the American  people. This is
exactly the type of operation that we hear about tonight. It's  a  chilling
scenario with worldwide implications  that  may have its roots right here [Las
Vegas, Nevada].
     Area 51, that mysterious corner of the Nevada Test Site,  is no  longer
considered a secret.  The fact that  secretive  things go on here isn't
evident; even to the Soviets who make daily  spy flights  over  the facility to
take a peek at  what's  going  on. These photos, never before shown in public,
are about as close as anyone will ever come to seeing what the place looks like
again. The dry bed at Groom Lake, the corrugated buildings, a three-mile long
runway  and some highly sophisticated radar  and  detection equipment.   Its
been  known by many names  over  the  years  -- Dreamland; The Ranch; The Skunk
Works.  If ever there was a place to  test  the  secret new technology, this
is  it.   And  that's exactly what has been done here for decades.
     Area  51  is  where Francis Gary Powers and  the  other  U-2 pilots  were
trained in the 50s.  And, where the U-2  itself  was developed.   The SR-71 spy
plane that spotted Soviet missiles  in Cuba  in  the early 60s were also
developed at 51.  51  is  where Stealth  technology  was nurtured, where Star
Wars  devices  are still tested, and where all manner of CIA [unknown] business
has been  plotted  and refined.  It's the perfect  place  for  secret things,
but  of course, that's no secret.  51 is ringed  by  the forbidden vastness of
the Nevada test site; by the looming  Groom Mountain  and  by sparsely
populated desert  expanses.   But  the people that do live out here have no
love lost for the  military, but  they're  conservative,  patriotic and they
mind  their  own business.

--- FD 2.00
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088/417 14 Nov 89 03:22:00
~From:   Robert Klinn
To:     All
Subj:   Area 51: The Nevada Test Site's Supersecret UFO Base?
Attr:   ------------------------------------------------
With two top local TV stations here in Las Vegas -- KLAS-TV and KTNV-TV --
carrying deadly serious news reports this week of real alien UFOs POSSIBLY
being flown out of the supersecret Area 51, that portion of the U.S.
Government's Nevada Test Site which the Air Force refuses to acknowledge as
even existing, the situation here appears like The War of the Worlds.
Disinformation?  Reality? What next? At KTNV-TV, photographer Clay Downey and
reporter Glen Meek are tracking down the nature of the on-going projects at
Area 51.  Off-air, Meek says he has discovered that Area 51 is comprised of
four sections.  Of those, he has learned the type of activity occurring at two
of them.  He has been having much difficulty learning the type of activity
occurring at the other two. KTNV will broadcast reports this week at 5:30 p.m.
Wed., Thurs, & Fri. In a videotape presented by KLAS-TV newsman George Knapp,
a UFO performs abrupt manuevers over what may be the "S-4" portion of Area 51
at the Test Site.  Knapp's final report will be broadcast tonight, Tuesday at
approximately 6:15 p.m. Knapp's star witness is scientist Robert Lazar, who
drew a picture of the craft he saw operating at the base. Lazar emphatically
claims these are alien craft -- not human-made devices. Lazar says at least
one UFO appeared to have been ruptured by a projectile. War of the Worlds?
Robert B. Klinn --- QuickBBS v2.04
 * Origin: -=<ParaNet Alpha(sm)>=- Denver, CO [phone] (1:104/422)
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097/417 15 Nov 89 01:55:00
~From:   Michael Corbin
To:     All
Subj:   Installment on Dreamland continued.
Attr:   ------------------------------------------------
November 13, 1989

     ParaNet   Information  Service  (Denver,  CO)  --   In   our continuing
coverage of the remarkable revelations coming out  of Las  Vegas, Nevada, here
is the next installment to  the  program aired  on  November 13, 1989 by
television  station  KLAS-TV  and George Knapp.

=================================================================
News Anchor persons:
     A  former  government scientist has alleged  that  the  U.S. military is
flying recovered UFOs at a secret base in the  Nevada desert.  The allegations
about the secret facility near the Groom Mountains  first  surfaced  on
Eyewitness  News  on  last  Friday [November 10, 1989].
     Scientist Bob Lazar says that there are at least nine of the flying
saucers  being  tested and that they were  not  built  on Earth.   George Knapp
has more on the continuation of our  series on UFOs.

Lazar:   "Yeah.  It was obvious it came from somewhere else,  uh, other than
Earth."

     Scientist Bob Lazar was convinced that the technology he saw being  tested
at a secret base in the Nevada desert is  of  alien origin,  and for Lazar the
proof is, at least, partially  in  the furniture.   One of the nine flying
disks he says he saw  at  the base,  which  was  designated S-4, looks exactly
like  this  UFO photographed  in Europe [Photo of UFO shown].   Lazar  called
it the "sport model."

Lazar:  "I gave everything names -- the top hat one and you  know the  jello
mold and, uh, the sport model  operated  without  any hitches  at  all.  I
mean, it looked new.  If I knew what  a  new flying  saucer looked like.  One
of them looked like it  was  hit with  some  sort  of a projectile.  It had a
large  hole  in  the bottom  and a large hole in the top with the metal bent
out  like some  sort  of,  you know, large caliber 4 or  5  inch  had  gone
through it."

     Even  before he saw the sport model operate, Lazar says,  he suspected
that  the  ship  came  from  somewhere   else.    The realization  slapped him
in the face the first time  he  glimpsed the inside of the disk.

Lazar:  "I got to look inside and it had really small chairs.   I think  that
was the first confirmation I had.  That was  just  a shocking thing because
everytime before that I was able to  label it.  This is just a little advance
that a group of scientists had formed  and,  you know, they're keeping it
secret, and  yeah,  we could  have  built  a big disk like that,  and  yeah,
that's  no problem, and, you know, we could have adapted the use(?) to  make it
fly, but why does it have little furniture inside?  [garbled]. And things began
to click together just all too fast."

     A  few of the disks had been completely dismantled  to  find out   how
they  worked,  Lazar  says,  but  others  were   fully operational.  A Japanese
TV network created this animated version of  Lazar's story after his first
interview with us aired in  May [showing  video].  Lazar says the dramatization
is similar  to  a test flight he witnessed.

Lazar:  "The bottom of it glowed blue and began to hiss like any, like  high
voltage does on a round sphere.  It's  my  impression that the reason that
they're round and have no sharp edges is  to contain the high voltage like, uh,
if you've seen a high  voltage system's insulators -- things are round or else
you get a  corona discharge.   In either case, it began to hiss as in high
voltage and it lifted off the ground quietly except for that little  hiss in
the background, and that stopped as soon as it reached  about 20 or 30 feet."

     Lazar  says the test of the sport model was a short  one  -- that  it
made  only a few moves before setting  back  down.   He didn't  see  who  was
actually flying the  craft,  but  was  very impressed, nonetheless.

Lazar:  "Well, there's no action reaction system to it.   There's no,  like  in
a jet engine, exhaust gas being thrown  out  --  no propeller,  no noise.  It's
just, for all intents  and  purposes, magic."

     To  Lazar's knowledge, the flying disks are not being  used, for  say, any
flights to Jupiter.  He said excessive caution  and intense  secrecy
contributed to the plodding pace of the  program and were a main source of his
disenchantment.

Lazar:   "It's just unfair, outright, not to put it in the  hands of the
overall scientific community.  There are people much  more capable of dealing
with this information, and by this time  would have  gotten a lot further along
than this small select group  of people working out in the middle of the
desert.  They don't  even have  the facilities, really, to completely analyze
what  they're dealing with."

Gene  Huff:  "Well he was being quiet.  If he kept me abreast  of anything,  he
kept me abreast of the security checks  --  they'd randomly  drop  by his
house.  They'd threaten his  life;  they'd threaten  his wife's life.  They had
done all that so  we  really didn't converse, I mean, he really was adhering to
the program."

     Gene  Huff is a Las Vegas real estate appraiser.  A  regular guy  who
just  happens to have a friend  in  the  flying  saucer business.  He learned
about Lazar's S-4 experiences only after  a long period.  Lazar is anxious for
people to know that he  didn't just  run  right out and spill the secrets of
the  universe,  and that some things are properly kept confidential.

Lazar:  "I did not believe that this should be a security matter. Some  of it,
sure.  But, just the concept that  there's  definite proof, and uh, we even
have articles from another world,  another system, you just can't not tell
everyone.  A lot of people  don't believe that.  But, I do."

     When he reached what he felt was his bursting point, he took Huff  and a
few others to the edge of the Groom Mountains to  see the  flights  for
themselves.  A total of five witnesses  on  two consecutive  weeks managed to
dodge security patrols long  enough to see the strange glowing object lift
above the mountain.

Huff(?):   "Uh,  it came up above the same  mountain.   It  moved around.   It
did a step move -- it actually went up in  the  air like  this  [showing
details with hands]  and  it  hovered  then dropped way down then it just
floated around and cruised  around. It starts coming up the mountain range...."

     This home video tape was recorded during one of the trips to the   Groom
Mountains   [showing  video   tape.    A   lot   of talking....Object  in
sight....Mention  of  brightness  of   the object....].
     Admittedly,  the tape proves very little by itself  because, with  the
distance and darkness,  there are no  reference  points other than the alleged
flying disk, but Lazar's information about the  time and location of the test
flight proves correct  --  not once  but  twice.  That, according to our
off-camera  interviews with each of the other witnesses.  Gene Huff describes
his second sighting:

Huff:   "Through the telescope we could see an  elliptical-shaped light.   You
can only get so close even with a  telescope  to  a secure  facility.   Anyway,
it came up by us  very  rapidly.   It glowed  and  glows  brighter like a star
and we  almost  got  the feeling that it was going to explode, it glowed so
brightly.   We backed  up behind the car then it went down and glowed back up
a little bit and then very softly glided back over, back where  the mountains
where it came up, hovered for awhile, and then  that's that....Just like you
see in the movies."

     Bob Lazar isn't the only person to claim "inside  knowledge" of  the
flying  disks at the test site -- he is  just  the  only person  to  say so
publicly.  We have communicated  with  several people who say they know of the
saucer program.  A technician  in a highly sensitive position told us it is
"common knowledge among those  with high security clearances that recovered
alien  disks are  stored at the Nevada test site."  A Las Vegas  professional,
who  once  served in the military and was stationed at  the  test site,  said
he saw a flying disk land outside the  boundaries  of Area  51 -- that it was
quickly surrounded by security  personnel and  that he was taken away and
debriefed for several  hours.   A man  who  once  worked  at Groom Lake as  a
technician,  at  our request, wrote this letter explaining how he inadvertently
walked into  the  wrong  hangar  and saw what appeared  to  be  a  large
metallic disk under a tarp.  It was being examined by men in  lab coats.   And,
an  airman  who  worked  at  Nellis  at  a   radar installation  says  he and
his fellow servicemen watched  over  a period  of  five nights, unusual objects
flying  over  the  Groom Mountains.  He says the radar images indicates the
objects zoomed into range at speeds of 7,000 miles per hour and then would
stop on  a  dime, and that nothing we have is capable of  doing  that. The
airman says that when word of his sighting got out,  he  was ordered  to turn
off his radar sensors for that area and told  to keep quiet about the matter
because it did not happen.
     None  of  this means that the military  is  actually  flying alien
spacecraft in the Nevada desert.  It could all perhaps  be explained as some
other secret program.  Lazar insists that's not the case.
     We  put  the  matter to the U.S. Navy,  which  according  to Lazar, is
running the saucer show.  Four different naval  offices were  contacted.   All
denied having any  information  in  their files.   The  Naval  Research Lab
said it  conducted  a  thorough search  but found "zip."  Naval Intelligence
said much  the  same thing,  adding,  it is not required to create a  file
where  one doesn't  exist.  A side note:  We also requested files on  a  UFO
sighting over Tremonton, Utah in 1952.  The Navy spent more  than a thousand
hours studying film of that sighting -- a fact  that's been  noted in several
publications -- but, for purposes  of  our request, the Navy couldn't find
those files either.

Lazar:   "The group that runs this project, whether it really  is the  Navy  or
they just say that, apparently  these  people  have executive power -- they
don't report to anyone."

     Tomorrow,   more  troubling  allegations  of  the military potential of
alien technology.

=================================================================

This file is available on ParaNet as Area51-2.ufo.

--- FD 2.00
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146/417 20 Nov 89 00:16:00
~From:   Michael Corbin
To:     All
Subj:   More on Lazar and Dreamland/Area 51
Attr:   ------------------------------------------------
November 14, 1989

     ParaNet   Information  Service  (Denver,  CO)  --   In   our continuing
coverage of the Riddle of Area 51, here is yet another installment  of  the
KLAS-TV program being aired  in  Las  Vegas, Nevada  featuring Bob Lazar, who
has 'come out of the closet'  so to speak with information regarding government
testing of UFOs.

=================================================================

     Just  over this ridge [showing a photo of Area  51],  tucked inside the
test tubes of a hidden government base, the secrets of the  universe may be
unfolding.  The area is designated S-4,  and according to one man who claims to
have worked there, S-4 harbors scientific   achievements   that  would
astonish   our   deepest thinkers.  It is technology that, if it exists, could
change  the world, but is allegedly bottled up by military minds.

Lazar:   "It's  not  an overall  government  project.   It's  not something
that Congress appropriates money for.  2 billion is for this; 15 billion for
flying saucers; 8 billion for Star Wars.  It doesn't  go  like  that.   I don't
believe  that  they  have  any knowledge of it at all."

     The technology that Bob Lazar says he saw extends far beyond flying
saucers.  An anti-matter reactor allows the spaceships  to produce   their  own
gravitational  fields,  he  says,  such   a technology,  if  real, would answer
UFO skeptics who  argue  that aliens  could  never visit Earth because  the
distances  between worlds are too great, even at the speed of light.

Lazar:  "Gravity distorts time and space.  Just like if you had a water bed and
put a bowling ball in the middle.  It warps it down like  that  -- that's
exactly what happens to  space.   Imagining that  you  were  in a spacecraft
that could  exert  a  tremendous gravitational  field  by itself you could sit
on  any  particular place  and turn on the gravity generator and actually warp
space and  time, and fold it.  By shutting that off, you'd  click  back and
you'd be a tremendous distance from where you were but  time would not have
even moved because you essentially shut it off.  I mean it is so far fetched,
people....it's difficult for people to grasp,  and  as stubborn as the
scientific community  is  they'll never buy it, but this is, in fact, that's
just what happens."

     Actually,  Lazar's explanation is very close  to  mainstream scientific
thought, and can be traced directly to Einstein.   The difference is scientists
regard it as theory only.  There is much that science still doesn't know.

Dale  Etheridge (Scientist):  "There are people who say that  our main  problem
with that is we don't know what gravity  is.   It's this magical force that
acts at a distance.  We can describe  how it  behaves -- that's what the law of
gravity is -- it's  just  a description  of  how it behaves, but it says
nothing  about  what gravity really is."


     We'll use Etheridge as our barometer of scientific  thought. He says we
cannot produce gravity; that there's no such thing  as a working anti-matter
reactor, and that we have yet to figure out a  way  to  get around the speed of
light.   He  also  concedes, though, such things are possible.

Etheridge:   "Yeah.  And really we don't know what's possible  as there  could
be other civilizations out  there  several  hundred years  or so -- a thousand
years, even a million years  ahead  of us  -- that have found a way to
circumvent this.  We have no  way of knowing for sure."

Lazar:  "Well, the thing is when you harness gravity, you harness everything.
It's  the missing piece in physics right  now.   We really know very little
about gravity."

     At  least  that's  the way it used to be.   Lazar  says  the technology to
harness gravity not only exists but is being tested at S-4.  And, if such
technology is beyond human capabilities, it must  have come from someplace
else.  It's more than  conjecture, he  says, because he also saw an element
that cannot be found  on the  periodic chart.  The element, called 115, can be
stored  in lead  casings  much  like  this  one  [showing  a  lead  circular
container].  Lazar says the government has 500 pounds of it,  and it cannot be
made on earth.

Lazar:  "It would be almost impossible; well, it is impossible to synthesize an
element that heavy here on Earth."

Interviewer:  "At least right now."

Lazar:   "I  don't think that you can ever  synthesize  it.   The amount
of....you essentially have to assemble it by bombarding it with protons
if....atom by atom, it would take an infinite amount of  power and an infinite
amount of time.  The substance  has  to come  from  a place where super-heavy
elements  could  have  been produced naturally.

     And what sort of place is that?

Lazar:   "Next to a much larger sun where there would be  greater mass.   Maybe
a binary star system -- a super-nova  --  somewhere where  there  is just a
bigger release of  energy  to  synthesize these  things  naturally.   It has to
be  a  naturally  occurring element."

     115  is the fuel for the anti-matter reactors, he says.   By bombarding
115 anti-matter is produced.  A kilo  of  anti-matter could  produce the energy
equivalent of 46  ten-megaton  hydrogen bombs, and comparing the energy
potential of anti-matter to, say, the Hoover Dam would be like comparing
planets to grains of sand. 115 could also make one heck of a bomb.

Lazar:   "We're talking about hundreds and hundreds  of  megatons off  a  small
piece  of it.  It  sounds  incredible,  but  total conversion  of  matter  to
energy would release  that  amount  of power.  And it isn't that difficult to
take....get the energy out of  it.  So it's not something you'd ever want to
fall  anyone's hands."

     The  dangers associated with 115 and anti-matter may be  the reason Lazar
was hired to work at S-4.  There was an accident, he says, back in April 1987.
An accident that was passed off as  an unannounced nuclear test.

Lazar:   "Some people got killed.  I was told flat out I was  one of the people
that were to replace these guys."

     Is this why the government might be keeping the whole matter a secret?
Because of the military potential of alien technology? Lazar  says  he believes
the Soviet Union was once  part  of  our research  on  the  flying disks, but
that  the  U.S.  kicked  the Soviets  out  after  making  some sort  of
discovery.   He  also believes  the program at S-4 is operated with funds
allocated  to Star  Wars  research,  but  says he can't  prove  it.   Some  UFO
researchers suspect the government is test flying alien craft  so that  it can
one day master the technology and claim it was  made in  the good old U.S.A.,
thus obscuring the possibility of  alien visitations.

Stanton  T. Friedman:  "I think they have the duty to inform  us. At  least  to
the bare bones of what's going on.   I  don't  want technological  stuff put
out on the table.  I mean, I  worked  on classified  projects  for  15 years,
and I don't  think  we  need another  weapon's  delivery system.  But I think
the  government does have the responsibility to release information that,
indeed, the  planet  is  being visited.  Probably it should  be  done  in
conjunction with the Soviets."

Lazar:   "I don't think that it will get to that level.   They're not  going to
have a fleet of them and fly them  around  and....I don't think you need to do
that.  If you're looking at them  from a weapons point of view, you're looking
at an incredibly powerful device.   You only need one to operate.  You don't
ever  need  to come public with it.  You may want to learn more about it
should it ever break which is....might be what they're doing.  Uh...."

Interviewer:  "They've got one...."

Lazar:  "Oh, they've got a few.  Yeah."

     Lazar  is  the  first to admit that his story  is  tough  to swallow.   He
submitted  to  polygraph  exams  that  opened   up sensitive  parts  of his
personal life, and fully expects  to  be ridiculed or perhaps punished for his
revelations.  His desire to explain  what  really happened at S-4 took us to
Layne  Keck,  a licensed  experienced  hypnotherapist who quietly  and
privately tried to help Lazar remember details of the many briefing  papers he
says he read.

Keck:   "I  have no clue as to what we were getting  to,  and  he started
saying  that there were pictures of what I  thought  was desks  on the wall.
Well as it turned out, it was disks that  he was  referring to.  And, at that
moment, I realized we were  into something that was pretty heavy."

     Keck  does  not  exaggerate his  claims  for  hypnosis.   He regards it as
a useful tool for uncovering some lost memory.   He says  people are quite
capable of lying under hypnosis, but  says the  technique can be of help in
determining truth.   What's  his opinion of Lazar's truthfulness?

Keck:   "It tells me that his subconscious mind believes  totally all of these
things."

     Lazar has long suspected that his government employers  used some  sort
of  mind  control  technique  to  prevent  him   from disclosing  too  much
about S-4.  While he  says  he  has  vivid conscious memories of the saucers
and other technology there were other  memories, that even now, remained
locked, which is why  he sought  out  Keck  in the first place.  Keck  is
convinced  that someone really did mess with Lazar's head.

Keck:  "Also they used primitive fear in threatening those in his environment
if  he did bring this information forth.   Also,  it appears that maybe there
were some chemicals used."

Lazar:  "Nah, I'm not going to change anyone's mind.  That not my intention.
I'm  just relaying the experience.  The job  that  I went through.  It is a
fantastic thing.  It's a fantastic  story. I can't take people there to show
them what was going on, and uh, you know, I don't expect anyone to believe it."

     What  if he is right?  What if aliens are here?   How  would this change
our view of the world?  Our most fundamental beliefs, which is religion?  We'll
know more on that tomorrow.

=================================================================

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159/417 21 Nov 89 22:38:00
~From:   Robert Klinn
To:     Bryon Smith
Subj:   Re:     Area 51:  The Nevada Test Site's Supersecret Ufo Base?
Attr:   ------------------------------------------------------
The time for the KLAS-TV (Channel 8), Las Vegas, report is Saturday, November
25, 1989, 8:00 p.m. to 10:00 p.m.  The program is titled, "UFOs:  The Evidence."
Producer George Knapp says it will include the substance as well as updates of
material recently broadcast as the nine-part series, "UFOs:  The Best Evidence."
(Incidentally, each of those nine parts was approximately 15 minutes, not one
hour.) Knapp also says that while he is personally interested in more UFO
material about Area 51, there is no more budget at his station to pursue it.
This contrasts with his on-air statement last week at the end of the ninth
segment of the series, to the effect that the Area 51/S-4/Robert
Lazar/recovered alien vehicles investigation is continuing; also earlier in the
series, he had said that this was only the beginning, that the investigation is
"by no means" over. --- QuickBBS v2.04
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166/417 22 Nov 89 19:41:00
~From:   Robert Klinn
To:     All
Subj:   Robert Lazar on KVEG-AM
Attr:   ------------------------------------------------
Theoretical physicist Robert Lazar and friend Las Vegas realtor Gene Huff --
in-studio guests on "Billy Goodman's Happening" live talk show, KVEG 840-AM
Radio, 10:00 p.m. 11/21/89 until 1:00 a.m. 11/22/89 -- answered questions for
three hours. --- QuickBBS v2.04
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168/417 22 Nov 89 20:55:00
~From:   Michael Corbin
To:     All
Subj:   Update: Area 51
Attr:   ------------------------------------------------
CONTRIBUTED BY:  Robert B. Klinn, ParaNet Director of
                 Investigations/Research
================================================================================
                (C) Copyright 1989 ParaNet Information Service
================================================================================
Theoretical physicist Robert Lazar and his friend, Las Vegas realtor, Gene
Huff -- in-studio guests on "Billy Goodman's Happening" live talk show, KVEG
840-AM Radio, 10:00 p.m.11/21/89 until 1:00 a.m. 11/22/89 -- answered questions
for three hours.

These notes were compiled from 10:20 p.m., thus missing 20 minutes (10:00 -
10:20 p.m.) of the three-hour program.

Lazar says he is tired.

1.  Lazar's Purpose In Going On-Air: Although Lazar's main stated purpose in
appearing on the broadcast is to protect himself, caller Bill Cooper says one
of Lazar's motives is anger -- previously expressed privately to Cooper -- that
billions of dollars are  needlessly wasted in the normal U.S. sectors by those
without access to this alien technology.  Lazar agrees.

Lazar says another reason for his appearing is to correct incorrect information
he had heard on previous broadcasts.

Billy Goodman says Lazar's, Bill Cooper's, and John Lear's lives are on the
line and that Lazar's best protection is the media, which is keeping Lazar
alive.

Lazar hopes "other people out there" working at S-4 will loosen up, come
forward, and join with him to present their information as one, as a group.
He doesn't want to be "the lone ranger."

Congressional amnesty -- suggested by a caller -- would be nice, says Lazar,
but merely offers freedom from prosecution.  By coming forward, he concedes,
the other S-4 workers have everything to lose and nothing to gain.

But Huff says there has to be a moral guideline where national security has to
hang in the balance and that the reporting of the existence of alien spaceships
is where you draw the line.

Caller Bill Cooper says there is "a higher value" that those at S-4 should
consider as a reason for coming forward to join Lazar.

But Lazar makes a point of distinguishing his whole view of the UFO situation
from that of John Lear or Bill Cooper.

2.  Verification of Lazar's Background: Lazar says he worked at S-4 --  a
"restrained military environment" in Nevada -- from 12/88 to 4/89.

In response to callers who want independently to check up on Lazar, he says his
"colorful" background has already been checked by George Knapp of KLAS-TV, who
had traveled to Los Alamos Laboratories and had spoken to former Lazar
colleagues, who confirmed he really had worked there -- in spite of Los Alamos
itself denying the fact of Lazar's employment with them.  (Knapp's UFO
broadcast displayed a page from a 1982 Los Alamos Labs internal phone book,
listing Robert Lazar.)

Caller Bill Cooper, who says he has talked to Lazar for over a year, says that
by talking to persons at Lawrence Livermore Laboratory and at another facility,
he and associates have confirmed Lazar's previous work in physics at the places
Lazar specified.  Lazar replied he was not aware of this checking done by
Cooper.

Responding to an "investigator" caller wanting Lazar to give him private info
in order to check him out, Lazar says Lazar himself once took a correspondence
course to be a private "investigator."

Lazar says he has 25 people each wanting independently to check him out, but he
will not allow that.

Although Lazar admits he was paid by check, he refuses to discuss anything
about the check stubs.

<Continued next message...>

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169/417 22 Nov 89 20:55:00
~From:   Michael Corbin
To:     Michael Corbin
Subj:   Update:  Area 51
Attr:   ------------------------------------------------
<...Continued from previous message>

3.  Lazar's Clearance Level: He says neither REECO (Reynolds Electrical and
Engineering Co., Inc.) nor EG&G  -- each a well-known U.S. Department of Energy
Test Site contractor -- has people at S-4, that those persons' clearances are
at most Q-Clearances, while his own clearance is "38 levels above Q-Clearance."
The closest to S-4 that REECO or EG&G people physically get, he says, is Area
51.

4.  Threats Made to Lazar/Lazar Shot At? When Goodman refers to Lazar's telling
him before the broadcast that Lazar had been shot at, Lazar says he doesn't
want to talk about it.

Lazar says he was called to go back to work but officially refused because he
didn't like the idea of returning to that isolated place in the desert where
they could do what they wanted to him. However, he says his clearance has not
been revoked.

Lazar says the executive powers at S-4 have run amok and there are no checks
and balances.  Congress, he says, has no knowledge of all this. Lazar says
there are no lengths to which the military will not go to conceal this
information.

5.  Mind Control Suspicions: He contacted hypnotherapist Layne Keck of Serenus
Clinical Hypnosis in Las Vegas because there were a couple of days where Lazar
remembered only going out in a plane and coming back, but nothing in between.
He suspected mind control had been performed on him.

Lazar purposely selected Serenus because it had nothing to do with UFOs. [A Las
Vegas Yellow Pages ad says: Serenus Clinical Hypnosis Helen Baucum 30 years
Experience "Pin-Point" Method Children Our Specialty Weight Control,
Stuttering, Bed Wetting, Nervous Tensions, Smoking, Drinking, Memory Retention
384-4420 1833 W. Charleston (across from S. Nevada Memorial Hosp.)]

Under hypnosis, Lazar recalled intense drilling, threatening actions taken
against him, and his drinking of "pine," which his hypnotherapist said was
similar to the "Orion [sp?] Method" of regimented hypnosis used by the
military.

Per Huff, Lazar was given drugs and hypnosis by his employers -- not so he
would forget what he was working on, but so -- by their imprinting his
subconscious -- he would be afraid to talk.

Per Huff, after first telling Lazar his phone was tapped, the military later
threatened him because, having monitored his phone, they knew he was planning
to release information about the alien craft.  Huff says the military were
amazed that the drugs and hypnosis had not worked.

Although he is afraid, Lazar hopes they won't come after him now since he has
already talked.

6.  Location of the Saucers: Lazar says the nine saucers are not at the
supersecret Area 51 (Groom Lake) of the U.S. government's Nevada Test Site, but
at S-4 -- 10 miles south of Area 51.  The disks are only at this one place.
However, to go to work, Lazar flew (by plane) to Groom Lake, waited a short
time at a cafe, then got on a bus [with blacked-out windows, per Lazar's
Knapp-series statements].

Lazar says he knows someone who drills tunnels at the Test Site, but no mention
is made that this individual also works at S-4.

7.  Bad Aliens Killed S-4 Workers: Lazar says the aliens are not benevolent.

Some humans were killed in a conflict after a U.S. military intelligence power
play, after which point a previously ongoing information exchange ended.

Huff says Lazar earlier told him -- and Lazar agrees he had said this -- that
this exchange of information occurred between the aliens and human
scientists/human security personnel [at S-4?].

But although the aliens had allowed themselves to be under constant human
guard, the aliens had insisted there be no bullets in the guns worn by the
security people.  [Bullets may have been a symbol covering all loaded weapons.]

The security people ignored that demand, and they all died from head wounds --
which left no evidence of how they had died.

The aliens even killed the scientists they were teaching.

[On Knapp's broadcast last week, Lazar said he was told he was one of the
replacements: George Knapp: The dangers associated with 115 [the alien element]
and anti-matter may be the reason Lazar was hired to work at S-4.  There was an
accident, he says, back in April 1987,  an accident that was passed off as an
unannounced nuclear test.

Robert Lazar: Some people got killed.  I was told flat out I was one of the
people that were to replace these guys.]

Responding to a caller, Lazar says talking about aliens is NOT a touchy subject
for him.  Aliens exist, he says. [Lear, in an earlier On the Record KLAS-TV
broadcast, says Lazar saw aliens.]


<Continued next message...>

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170/417 22 Nov 89 20:56:00
~From:   Michael Corbin
To:     Michael Corbin
Subj:   Update: Area 51
Attr:   ------------------------------------------------
<...Continued from previous message>

8.  Time of Saucer Test Flights: The tests of the saucers at S-4 are Wednesday
nights. Lazar says he was fired because he showed people where and when these
tests were performed.

9.  Who Pilots the Test Flights? Lazar says the experimental UFO flights at S-4
are flown either by remote control or by human pilots -- not by the aliens.

10.  Origin of the Saucers at S-4: The alien vehicles Lazar saw up close in
hangars come from "another world: "the fourth planet out from Zeta Reticulum II
[sp?], a binary system."  [Same as on Betty Hill's map?]

11.  Description of the Saucers: He says he touched one of the nine UFOs and
even stood in its doorway.

He says the saucers mostly appeared "like new" -- one of them looking like the
Billy Meier saucer. [On George Knapp's recent series "UFOs: The Best Evidence"
(KLAS-TV, Las Vegas), Lazar says one of the saucers "looked like it was hit
with some sort of a projectile.  It had a large hole in the bottom and a large
hole in the top with the metal bent out like some sort of, you know, large
caliber 4- or 5-inch had gone through it."]

The inside of one craft appears made of wax and then cooled off, all like a
cast or mold of one thing with no rough edges.

Inside were small chairs, one or one and one-half feet, as though made for
little kids. (Compare with George Knapp's new Roswell witness who said on
Knapp's nine-segment broadcast that a Roswell funeral home worker had told him
the military had purchased all of the "baby or youth caskets" in stock for the
purpose of holding the Roswell aliens.)

12.  Nine S-4 Saucers Extraterrestrial -- Not Earthly: The nine disks he saw up
close -- including the one he worked on -- were not earthly and were definitely
extraterrestrial.

Lazar can't say whether or not the other disks he saw at a distance during
testing [seen on  video presented in George Knapp's broadcasts] are man-made or
extraterrestrial.

13.  Physics of the Saucers at S-4: Lazar says the vehicle attaches itself to a
distorted portion of space-time and returns with the distortion.  It's a new
physics. The vehicles brought a space-time warp with them.

Lazar says the propulsion technology should properly remain classified, since
everything there is looked at from a weapons point of view.  A lot is directly
applicable to weapons systems, and he has no intention of releasing it, he
says.

But he says the craft uses gravity as a lens and the power source is an
anti-matter reactor.

Two Modes of Travel for Saucers at S-4: 1)  When traveling around the surface
of the planet, the vehicles balance on a gravity wave or ride a wave like a
cork on the ocean.  In this mode they are unstable and are affected by the
weather.

2)  For space travel, they use gravity generators.  But if they fly around the
surface of Earth using this mode, they may flip over, a phenomenon Lazar says
has frequently been observed in past sightings in the published UFO literature.

Two gravities:  A & B. Gravity A works on an atomic scale whose interaction is
small and has to do with fuel -- the alien Element 115 used for the disks.

Gravity B works on a macro scale.

The gravitational field is OUT OF PHASE with [unknown ?] and is like a wave
generator.  It is LONGITUDINAL generation -- not spherical, as a caller
suggested.

14.  Project Aurora: "Aurora," says Lazar, distinguishing it from any UFOs, is
the replacement for the SR-71 plane.  It uses a three-mile runway and makes a
sound like continuous explosions. It has speeds up to Mach 10.

15.  No Alien Cattle Mutilations? As far as HE knows, Lazar says, there is no
alien UFO tie-in with cattle mutilations.

16.  Few Abductees? More persons claim to be abductees than have actually been
abducted, suggests Lazar.

17.  No Blue Diamond Entry Way for Saucers: Notwithstanding UFO watchers
congregating at Blue Diamond, Lazar says there is only a gravity anomaly around
Blue Diamond, not an entry way for saucers into our universe.

18.  Other Physics Comments By Lazar: Time travel: GRAVITY affects time.
Moving FORWARD in time is "a breeze":  All you need do is get close to a
gravitational field. Moving back in time MIGHT also be possible.

Some physicists today, says Lazar, invoke superstring theories to simply add
another dimension to the universe whenever they can't explain something.

Referring to laser fusion experiments as "stupid," Lazar refers to a location
where they have been conducted.

Lazar also speaks of a process of squeezing plutonium.

In response to a caller's question, Lazar says M-42 is a galaxy.

19.  Lazar says George Knapp's two-hour program on KLAS-TV, Channel 8 in Las
Vegas, this Saturday, 11/25/89, 8:00 p.m. to 10:00 p.m., will contain "much
more information" than Knapp's recent nine-part, two-hour UFO broadcasts last
week.

================================================================================

This is contained in a file called 1122LACO.UFO in the Library.

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181/417 24 Nov 89 21:29:41
~From:   Cyro Lord
To:     All
Subj:   Antimatter
Drives and Area 51
Attr:   ------------------------------------------------
~From: [e-mail] (Cyro Lord) Date: 24 Nov 89 20:44:28 GMT
Organization: ALPHA Comm. Dev. Corp., Aurora, Co. Message-ID:
<[e-mail]> Newsgroups: info.paranet


>From: [e-mail] (MacLeod) In article <[e-mail]> paj@mrcu (Paul
Johnson) writes:

:A couple of months ago I read Robert Forward's book "Mirror Matter" in :which
he suggests that the practical use of antimatter is now :possible.  Are his
ideas impractical?  If not, what is being done :about them?

Glad you asked about antimatter.

According to a series of reports on two Las Vegas television stations (there is
a two-hour special coming on 11-25 for those in the LV area) one Robert Lazar,
formerly employed by the government at the mysterious Area 51, says that the US
government has 500 pounds of element 115, which somehow produces antimatter
when irradiated.

This fuel is used to drive waveguide-type gravity amplifiers which are the FTL
drive components of nine alien spacecraft stored in hangars out at Area 51 (the
supersecret testing grounds also known as "Dreamland" in the middle of the
Nellis AFB bombing range about 65 miles northeast of Las Vegas).  From his
brief description of how the drives operate, they seem to create local
black-hole strength gravity gradients which slow down time and cause a
space-fold quickly traversible by the spacecraft.

Lazar says he was hired to continue covert research into these spacecraft and
their engineering infrastructure after a former team of scientists had screwed
the pooch with a batch of element 115, forcing the AEC to hurridly announce an
"unscheduled" atomic test at Dreamland.

Don't flame me, call KLAS-TV in Vegas if you're curious.  They will be selling
copies of the 2-hour special, due to the outpouring of interest in it -
stimulated by word of mouth and news propagated by ParaNet. For some odd reason
the national media have not paid any attention...

You can also get on the ParaNet mailing list by sending a note to:
        scicom!infopara Michael Sloan MacLeod   (amdahl!drivax!macleod) (This
article is from the 'misc.headlines' newsgroup of USENET. If this is a repost,
please excuse the repost. -Cyro)

-- <---------------------------++++++++++++++++++----------------------------->
Cyro Lord       Alpha Comm. Dev. Corp. -  DOMAIN  [e-mail]
UUCP            {ncar,nbires,boulder,isis}!scicom!cyrill Corn can't expect
Justice from a court of chickens. (African Proverb)

--- ConfMail V4.00
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191/417 25 Nov 89 22:25:00
~From:   Don Allen
To:     Jim Speiser
Subj:   Re:Newest Release..
Attr:   ------------------------------------------------
Jim-Great approach, Don! I wish more people would do that. But when you hand it
out..   @ YES I DID! I did mention that it was unconfirmed. I may have an open
mind,but it ain't so open that my brains fall out!    Fact is,one of the people
that I handed the releases to is a Naval Commander (reservist). He was real
interested,but didn't say much. I was particularly amused when he asked that if
anything else came out that he would like to see it..    Jim- WHERE'S DA
BEEF???? .......   VERY good question Jim....The LEFT side of my brain is
asking the same thing,however the RIGHT side is leaning heavily towards
considering it as more than true. Lazar's claims sure *seem* more than
credible...   Sounds confusing,I know..but I keep the balance by continuing to
look for the "outpoints" of Lazar's story..things I'm mulling over:

Release- "In response to callers who want independently to check up on Lazar,
he says his "colorful" background has already been checked by George Knapp of
KLAS-TV, who had traveled to Los Alamos Laboratories and had spoken to former
Lazar colleagues, who confirmed he really had worked there -- in spite of Los
Alamos itself denying the fact of Lazar's employment with them.  (Knapp's UFO
broadcast displayed a page from a 1982 Los Alamos Labs internal phone book,
listing Robert Lazar.)

@ Thats SOUNDS plausible..but how do we actually *know* that Knapp checked up
on him? Is there any documentation that Knapp can actually SHOW (read-> Hard
copy) that Lazar has worked the places he's claimed to?

Release- Caller Bill Cooper, who says he has talked to Lazar for over a year,
says that by talking to persons at Lawrence Livermore Laboratory and at another
facility, he and associates have confirmed Lazar's previous work in physics at
the places Lazar specified. Lazar replied he was not aware of this checking
done by Cooper.

@ Which Bill Cooper is this? Is this THE Bill Cooper who was (to put it
politely) kicked off Paranet for leaving inflammatory statements to others? And
if so,what credibility do we (users,Paranet) assign to him? Are HIS "facts"
checkable? Have they been in the past?

Release-
 Lazar says he has 25 people each wanting independently to check him out, but
he will not allow that.

@ I can understand that. But how about a panel of 5 reputable people? Certainly
Dr Stanton Friedman should be one of the panel..

Release-
 He says neither REECO (Reynolds Electrical and Engineering Co., Inc.) nor EG&G
 -- each a well-known U.S. Department of Energy Test Site contractor -- has
people at S-4, that those persons' clearances are at most Q-Clearances, while
his own clearance is "38 levels above Q-Clearance." The closest to S-4 that
REECO or EG&G people physically...

@ Whew..How is anyone supposed to verify that? Maybe,just maybe the others that
worked with Lazar will come forth and support his story. --- QuickBBS v2.04
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194/417 26 Nov 89 15:07:00
~From:   Michael Corbin
To:     John H. Chalmers Jr.
Subj:   115,Etc.
Attr:   ------------------------------------------------
 >         (2) Element 115:  I don't know any reason why 115
 > would be useful in creating
 > an antigravity field or creating antimattter, except
 > possibly as an energy
 > source in some sort of fission reactor.  There is a
 > predicted quantum mechanical
 > "Island of Stability" around atomic numbers 112-116, but
 > more recent
 > calculations suggest that none of these elements would be
 > stable enough to be
 > isolated in macroscopic amounts. In contrast, only a few
 > years ago some
 > physicists thought that these elements might have half-
 > lives in the millions or
 > billions of years. Thank you for bringing this up.  I was hoping that some
of our physics readers would jump on this.  Could you go further into the
explanation about the instability of the elements between 112 and 116?
Furthermore, Lazar claims that the vessel uses that in combination with a wave
guide which, in his diagram, is shown protruding from the top part of the
reactor and protracting to the top of the vessel with an antenna of a sort
where it terminates.  At the bottom of the vessel is where the gravity
amplifier is located.

Also, what are tachyons and how could they figure into this scenario.  Is it
true that gravity could travel twice the speed of light?

 >         Antimatter is made today in small amounts; beams of
 > positrons and antiprotons
 > are used in particle accelerators.  Neutral anti-hydrogen
 > (positrons orbiting
 > antiprotons) would be hard to store, but certainly
 > synthesizable. It would be a
 > great power source when it mutually annihilated with normal
 > matter. How could this work in propulsion?

Based upon what has been said thus far by Lazar, could you comment on your
feelings about his credibility as a physicist and his theories regarding the
overall implication of this.

Thanks for your time and contribution to this discussion.

Michael Corbin

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198/417 27 Nov 89 04:28:00
~From:   Robert Klinn
To:     All
Subj:   S-4 Worker Backs Up Lazar's Claims
Attr:   ------------------------------------------------
Six "Scared-To-Death" S-4
Workers Reportedly Meet Outside the Nevada Test Site at Lathrop Wells to Unite
and Join Lazar's Expose of Alien Saucers On KVEG-AM Radio in Las Vegas, on The
Billy Goodman Happening, 11/24/89, 10:00 p.m. to 1:00 a.m., with Robert Lazar
on the line, another caller introduces himself as "a colleague in Lazar's
department." Calling himself "MW" for Mercury Worker [Mercury is the military
town inside the Test Site], he distinguishes his work -- "hands-on" -- from
Lazar's.  MW says he is a construction worker, installing and constructing. He
says he and others like him work in S-4 -- especially underground -- in deep
sections. "We all know a lot." "Someone had to install the hangars." "There is
more than tunnels -- everything you can imagine -- cause we did everything." He
says people are now meeting in small groups to talk about backing up Lazar.
There was a meeting of six workers the night of 11/24/89, he says, to discuss
whether or not they should publicly say what they saw. The five others are
scared to death, he says.  He himself sounds scared on the telephone. They are
trying to get it where it will be safe for them to join Lazar, he says. The
MW's are "putting something together to join you." There are two more MW
workers supporting you, he says. "We got together at Lathrop Wells [a small
town close to the southwest end of the Nevada Test Site] and said we got to do
something." "Only two out of the six are willing to do something." "The guys
are for you." Although encouraged, Lazar points out there's a ten-year jail
term for them if they talk. --- QuickBBS v2.04
 * Origin: -=<ParaNet Alpha(sm)>=- Denver, CO [phone] (1:104/422)
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401


228/417 28 Nov 89 19:19:44
~From:   John H. Chalmers Jr.
To:     All
Subj:   Reply to Mike Corbin
Attr:   ------------------------------------------------
~From: [e-mail] (John H. Chalmers Jr.) Date: 28 Nov 89
02:47:24 GMT Message-ID: <[e-mail]> Newsgroups: info.paranet

Mike:  Based on what I have read on ParaNet, I can't take Lazar's physics very
seriously.  I suspect that a professional physicist would feel that I am
understating the situation. I'm a biologist, not a quantum mechanic so most of
what I know is from secondary sources like textbooks, Scientific American, New
Scientist, The Sciences, or Stephen Hawking's recent best seller.  Physics
isn't my specialty, but I'll try to answer your questions.
        Now if somebody were to offer me a piece of purported alien tissue or a
culture of an ET microbe, I think I'd know how to authenticate it or how to
find people who could.
        Elements decay by three principal routes, alpha emission, spontaneous
fission and beta decay. The three controlling forces, the Electromagnetic,the
Strong Nuclear and the Weak Nuclear, are well understood with theory agreeing
with experiment to nine or ten decimal places in many cases.  The computational
magnitude of systems as complex as heavy elements precludes exact calculations
even on supercomputers, but the best approximations suggest that elements of
atomic number around 114 are more stable than any nearby because the nucleons
(protons and neutrons) form closed or nearly closed shells. This phenomenon is
analogous to the chemical inertness of helium, neon and argon because their
electrons form closed shells (outside the nucleus) and there is little tendency
to arrange them in other configurations so that they could form bonds to other
atoms and make compounds.
        However, this stability is not absolute and atoms decay spontaneously
with half-lives (the time for 50% to change) ranging from more than 10 to the
33 years for Hydrogen to about 10-23 seconds for some extremely short lived
isotopes decaying by the Strong Force.  Elements with half lives of weeks or
months can be isolated in weighable amounts though doing so is difficult and
dangerous, but isotopes with shorter  half-lives can only be identified by
their radioactive decay products.  Only a few atoms of Element 109 have been
made so far, but the energies of the alpha particles emitted along its decay
chain made identification unambiguous.  It's half-life is somewhere between a
millisecond and a microsecond. Elements 110 and 111 are expected to be even
less stable, so experimenters hope to jump into the Stability region where
half-lives are calculated to be longer.

Longer might mean 10-6 seconds or  it might mean minutes or seconds.  I don't
know what the latest predictions are.
        The only way we have to make such heavy nuclei is accelerate atoms of
medium weight elements such as calcium, carbon, etc. and smash them into heavy
atoms such as uranium.  It takes a lot of energy to overcome the
electromagnetic repulsion to get the nuclei close enough so that the very short
range (10-13 cm) Strong Force can bind the compound nucleus together.  If the
atoms have too little energy, they won't fuse, but if they have too much, they
won't stay together.  The new nucleus is only marginally stable at best and
will fission if it has too much energy.  Another problem is that the new
nucleus may not have enough neutrons to be stable. If so, it will undergo beta
decay as well.
        If any elements around 114  or higher can be made they will be
important confirmation of the standard model.  They will also have interesting
chemistry since they will have more electrons than any know elements and some
of these electrons will be in g orbitals with somewhat different properties
from those in d and f orbitals.
        Tachyons are hypothetical particles with negative or imaginary rest
mass and always travel faster than light. They have never been observed and no
one knows how to search for them.  Since they travel faster than light, their
interactions with normal matter would conflict with relativity.  Gregory
Benford, a physicist and award winning SF author, has written a serious paper
about a "Tachyonic Anti-Telephone"  which would allow one to place a call to
the past.  Needless to say, this would violate causality as we understand it.
        Invoking tachyons to explain some unknown effect is committing the
fallacy known as "Ignotus per ignotum," using one unknown to explain another.
If and when tachyons are discovered, and assuming they have the requisite
properties, then they may be used to explain unusual events.
        Now to antimatter:  I didn't mean to imply that particle accelerators
bombard anti-protons with positrons.  High energy electrons collide with
positrons and protons with antiprotons to produce exotic particles such as the
W and Z mesons (the field quanta of the weak force).
        if anti-Hydrogen and normal Hydrogen come into contact, the positrons
and the electrons will mutually annihilate to generate two gamma rays of .51
Mev.  The antiprotons and protons of the nuclei will also annihilate, but they
do so in a more complex fashion which produces a lot of intermediate particles.
The end result is the conversion of the mass  of both the normal and the
anti-matter to energy according to Einstein's equation, E= mc2 (E=energy,
m=totalmass, c=speed of light).
        The resulting gamma rays could be reflected off a heavy shield and used
for propulsion as a high energy photonic drive.  Such as system seems to be the
only feasible energy source for interstellar flight according to the articles
I've seen.
        Small amounts of antimatter could be made if anybody wanted to.  For
powering interstellar spacecraft travelling at relativistic velocities,
thousands or millions of  tons will be required, alas.
        The energy released in ordinary fusion or fission reactions is only a
small fraction of this energy and comes from the binding energies of the
nuclei: fission and fusion are the nuclear analogs of fermentation, while
matter-antimatter annihilation is analogous to terminal oxidation.  The nuclear
energies are about a million times larger than the chemical energies, however,
and this is why terrestrial organisms don't/can't use nuclear power in their
metabolism.
        The yet undiscovered field particle of the gravitational force, the
fourth of the known forces, is the graviton.  It would travel at the speed of
light. I don't know of any justification for the notion that gravitational
effects propagate at 2*c.
        Although gravitational radiation has not been observed directly,
certain binary star systems are losing energy at the rate calculated for
gravitational radiation, so physicists are reasonable confident about the
standard model. Gravitational radiation antennas with sufficient sensitivity
are being constructed, so direct observation could occur soon.
        Wave guides are conductive tubes which direct electromagnetic waves
(radio waves, light, etc). I have no idea if a gravitational wave guide or
amplifier is even theoretically possible.  The people to ask are gravitational
theorists such as Kip Thorne, John Archibald Wheeler or Robert Forward (who
also writes SF).
        Forward has designed some hypothetical anti-gravity devices based on
standard physics.  One involves passing the mass of a neutron star though a
toroidal coil the size of a football field in a millisecond to neutralize the
earth's gravity field in the center by generating the gravitational analog of
the magnetic field.  The other methods are even less practical.
        The problem is that gravity is 10 +43 times weaker than the Strong
Force and thus hard to study in the laboratory. One wishes to manipulate masses
of at least planetary size.  Also, the gravitational field is always attractive
and a function of the geometry of space-time
        i hope all of this wordage answers your questions.  These are
fascinating areas and one can go on and on. --John

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251/417 29 Nov 89 18:45:28
~From:   Usenet News
To:     All
Subj:   Lazar and his Amazing Saucers
Attr:   ------------------------------------------------
~Date: 29 Nov 89 20:47:15 GMT Message-ID: <[e-mail]> Newsgroups:
info.paranet

Hello, paranet friends,

I have been reading the newsletter from paranet for some time now. This is my
first posting.

+I just had an interesting thought...if you had been sitting on the secret +of
S-4 and dreamland for a long while, and had instructions to release the
+information to the public only if it would not cause a crisis, what better
+time to stage-leak the real story, as most of Eastern Europe and the Soviet
+Union call off the cold war?  Perhaps what Reagan was telling Gorbachev +in
their summit conferences is that we'll all hang separately if we don't +hang
together. + +More paranoia from, + +Michael Sloan MacLeod
(amdahl!drivax!macleod)

Regarding Lazar, I just wonder about the fact that we are on the eve of a
summit of great significance to the entire world.  As much as we would all like
to believe this intriguing tale (since so many questions would be answered), I
have to think that our government has a powerful motivation at the moment for
promoting this kind of idea.

Given the credulity of Soviets on this subject, how likely is it that the
Soviet intelligence community is going crazy right now trying to verify this
story before the summit?  Is this all designed to throw Gorbachev off balance?

If our government tried to announce such a thing (supposing it is false) they
would be innundated with requests for demonstrations and explanations, which
would ruin the ruse.  But the region where these events are alleged to have
occurred would be under constant scrutiny by Soviet agents, given the history
of the area.  The agents assigned to the area probably observed the news
programs with great interest.

Then there is the involvement of Cooper.  Readers will have to judge for
themselves the significance of this.

        Here is my scenario: Lazar works for some intelligence outfit.  His
background was wiped out (ineffectively) in the hopes that the attempt to erase
his history would give credibility to his story.  Others that come forward are
part of the same effort.  Some are actual believers who have been convinced by
the thoroughness of the deception.

The information is released in controlled packets, perhaps some intelligence
leaks were provided directly to Soviet agents to prepare them to be receptive
when the television program came on. It all is building up so that the climax
of the scam occurs just before the summit.  The result is that Gorbachev is off
balance and Bush has the advantage.


I think this is much more likely than the possibility that what Lazar says is
true, for these reasons:

1)  If this project were so top secret as Lazar says, he would
    never have appeared on that program.  Lazar said they knew
    he was going to leak in advance.  If that were true he
    would have been dead.  They would not wait until now to
    take sniper shots at him, and if they did, they wouldn't
    miss.

2)  Bill Cooper has discredited himself, and he appears to be
    involved.

3)  After reading on the subject, I am inclined to believe that
    the spiritual/supernatural/extradimensional aspect is the
    most significant.  I could go into this, but let me just
    say that I too have been reading Dimensions, and the ideas
    presented there make more sense than anything else I have seen
    on the subject.  This story does not fit the scenario.
    Instead it fits into a neat materialistic mold which would
    allow the military to control the phenomena by purely
    physical means.  This does not mean it is necessarily bogus,
    it just makes me suspicious.  It is too neat; too easy and pat.

4)  The gov't has a history of "leaking" bogus UFO stories.

5)  They are motivated to try to maintain the upper hand by the
    significance of this summit, in light of political developments.
    This whole thing may have been generated directly in response
    to developments in Eastern Europe.

6)  The whole thing may be relatively unimportant to our intelligence
    community - just another little game to try to keep the other
    guys confused, and good practice at generating disinformation.


Sorry, it's just too bizarre to believe without tons of corroboration from many
independent sources.

Cheers, --Steve
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
          {uunet,sun}!convex!swarren; [e-mail]

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257/417 01 Dec 89 02:31:53
~From:   Usenet News
To:     All
Subj:   Lazar and his Amazing Saucers
Attr:   ------------------------------------------------
~Date: 29 Nov 89 20:47:15 GMT Message-ID: <[e-mail]> Newsgroups:
info.paranet

Hello, paranet friends,

I have been reading the newsletter from paranet for some time now. This is my
first posting.

+I just had an interesting thought...if you had been sitting on the secret +of
S-4 and dreamland for a long while, and had instructions to release the
+information to the public only if it would not cause a crisis, what better
+time to stage-leak the real story, as most of Eastern Europe and the Soviet
+Union call off the cold war?  Perhaps what Reagan was telling Gorbachev +in
their summit conferences is that we'll all hang separately if we don't +hang
together. + +More paranoia from, + +Michael Sloan MacLeod
(amdahl!drivax!macleod)

Regarding Lazar, I just wonder about the fact that we are on the eve of a
summit of great significance to the entire world.  As much as we would all like
to believe this intriguing tale (since so many questions would be answered), I
have to think that our government has a powerful motivation at the moment for
promoting this kind of idea.

Given the credulity of Soviets on this subject, how likely is it that the
Soviet intelligence community is going crazy right now trying to verify this
story before the summit?  Is this all designed to throw Gorbachev off balance?

If our government tried to announce such a thing (supposing it is false) they
would be innundated with requests for demonstrations and explanations, which
would ruin the ruse.  But the region where these events are alleged to have
occurred would be under constant scrutiny by Soviet agents, given the history
of the area.  The agents assigned to the area probably observed the news
programs with great interest.

Then there is the involvement of Cooper.  Readers will have to judge for
themselves the significance of this.

        Here is my scenario: Lazar works for some intelligence outfit.  His
background was wiped out (ineffectively) in the hopes that the attempt to erase
his history would give credibility to his story.  Others that come forward are
part of the same effort.  Some are actual believers who have been convinced by
the thoroughness of the deception.

The information is released in controlled packets, perhaps some intelligence
leaks were provided directly to Soviet agents to prepare them to be receptive
when the television program came on. It all is building up so that the climax
of the scam occurs just before the summit.  The result is that Gorbachev is off
balance and Bush has the advantage.


I think this is much more likely than the possibility that what Lazar says is
true, for these reasons:

1)  If this project were so top secret as Lazar says, he would
    never have appeared on that program.  Lazar said they knew
    he was going to leak in advance.  If that were true he
    would have been dead.  They would not wait until now to
    take sniper shots at him, and if they did, they wouldn't
    miss.

2)  Bill Cooper has discredited himself, and he appears to be
    involved.

3)  After reading on the subject, I am inclined to believe that
    the spiritual/supernatural/extradimensional aspect is the
    most significant.  I could go into this, but let me just
    say that I too have been reading Dimensions, and the ideas
    presented there make more sense than anything else I have seen
    on the subject.  This story does not fit the scenario.
    Instead it fits into a neat materialistic mold which would
    allow the military to control the phenomena by purely
    physical means.  This does not mean it is necessarily bogus,
    it just makes me suspicious.  It is too neat; too easy and pat.

4)  The gov't has a history of "leaking" bogus UFO stories.

5)  They are motivated to try to maintain the upper hand by the
    significance of this summit, in light of political developments.
    This whole thing may have been generated directly in response
    to developments in Eastern Europe.

6)  The whole thing may be relatively unimportant to our intelligence
    community - just another little game to try to keep the other
    guys confused, and good practice at generating disinformation.


Sorry, it's just too bizarre to believe without tons of corroboration from many
independent sources.

Cheers, --Steve
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
          {uunet,sun}!convex!swarren; [e-mail]

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259/417 01 Dec 89 02:33:02
~From:   MacLeod
To:     All
Subj:   (none)
Attr:   ------------------------------------------------
~From: drivax![e-mail] (MacLeod)
~Date: 30 Nov 89 07:47:08 GMT
Message-ID: <[e-mail]> Newsgroups: info.paranet


Dear Friends,

I saw this article in the sci.space USENET newsgroup.

I think it's some straightfaced bs put up to parody the Area 51 article, but I
could be wrong.  The article had a strange-looking path line, and it seemed to
have been gateed from the Internet.

Article 15143 of sci.space: Path:
drivax!amdahl!apple!brutus.cs.uiuc.edu!wuarchive!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!ucsd
!ucbvax!FNAL.BITNET!HIGGINS From: [e-mail] (W.T. Higgins)
~Newsgroups: sci.space Subject: Re: Antimatter Drives and Area 51 Message-ID:
<[e-mail]> Date: 28 Nov 89 15:47:00 GMT Sender:
[e-mail] Organization: The Internet Lines: 61

Michael Sloan MacLeod posted a discussion about:

+Robert Lazar, formerly employed by the government at the mysterious +Area 51,
says that the US government has 500 pounds of element 115, +which somehow
produces antimatter when irradiated.

Lazar is pulling the wool over somebody's eyes. There were less than 300 pounds
of element 115, and probably less now. Samples were tested in various
university and government labs, including mine. Yes, it does give off
antimatter when bombarded with the proper radiation.  If you hit it with
negative muons, 115 (I'm talking about 287, the most abundant isotope, here.
Inconvenient not having a name for the element, but there never was general
agreement on it.)  transitions to an excited state that decays into a positron,
a nucleus of 114, and an antideuteron (bound state of an antiproton and an
antineutron).  The 114 is unstable, and in a few milliseconds it gives off
another antideuteron and a pair of positrons. And so forth, down the chart of
the nuclides. Every once in a while a decay in this chain will throw off a
neutron, just to keep things balanced. This had everybody excited for a while.
You might remember the big *Popular Mechanics* article about it.

Unfortunately, it turned out to be a bust.  We showered muons on our 115 sample
rods for weeks on end.  The decay chain ends, after a rather short time, at
106Pd. And Pd has a tremendous affinity for hydrogen, and anti-hydrogen.  We
had made a bunch of antimatter, but we couldn't get it out. The deuterons were
stuck within the Pd lattice.  All we could collect were a few deuterons coming
off atoms on the surface, and positrons, which we can get anywhere.  And
instead of an exotic heavy element, we were left with an inert lump of a metal
anybody can buy on the commodities market.  Remember the joke about the
alchemist who could turn gold into lead?

Having established that it wasn't a miracle energy source, most labs pretty
much lost interest.  At mine, we took the experiment apart and went on to more
interesting work.  The sample rods were lying around the lab for a while,
though, come to think of it, I haven't seen them in a couple of years.  I
suppose somebody scrounged them for another experiment.

+This fuel is used to drive waveguide-type gravity amplifiers which +are the
FTL drive components of nine alien spacecraft

Eight.  One crashed during tests in August 1981.  Three of the remaining eight
have now been dismantled.

+stored in hangars +out at Area 51 (the supersecret testing grounds also known
as "Dreamland" +in the middle of the Nellis AFB bombing range about 65 miles
northeast of +Las Vegas).

Not *too* supersecret.  See the book *Dreamland: A New Age of Flight Testing*,
by Richard Adams Locke, Aero Books, 1985.  A lot of nice photos of the place.

+From his brief description of how the drives operate, they +seem to create
local black-hole strength gravity gradients which slow down +time and cause a
space-fold quickly traversible by the spacecraft.

Get real.  The correct spelling is "traversable."

                                       Bill Higgins
+------------------------------------------------+
|  These opinions are not shared by my employer, |
|        or perhaps by anybody else.             |
+------------------------------------------------+

Michael Sloan MacLeod

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272/417 02 Dec 89 22:22:00
~From:   Clark Matthews
To:     Usenet News
Subj    Re: Lazar And His Amazing Saucers
Attr:   ------------------------------------------------
 > 3)  After reading on the subject, I am inclined to believe
 > that the spiritual/supernatural/extradimensional aspect is
 > the most significant.  I could go into this, but let me
 > just say that I too have been reading Dimensions, and the
 > ideas presented there make more sense than anything else I
 > have seen on the subject.  This story does not fit the scenario.
 > Instead it fits into a neat materialistic mold which would
 > allow the military to control the phenomena by purely
 > physical means.  This does not mean it is necessarily
 > bogus, it just makes me suspicious.  It is too neat; too easy
 > and pat.


Hi Steve.  Well, like you I have been quite taken with Dr. Vallee's hypothesis
in _Dimensions_.  But let's not get carried away here...

A few days back, pre-Crash (Alpha's hard disk, not the markets) I wrote a
semi-tongue-in-cheek riposte to someone about how unimportant it is who or what
builds and operates the UFOs we see, hear of, and investigate. Whether they are
built & operated by elves, pixies, leprechauns, Titans, Nordics or whatever is
not the point.

The point (to my mind, anyway) is that they print on radar, leave leave dents
in the ground when they land, occasionally scorch things and let people get
close enough to touch them -- even get inside.  They are material things.
Whether they come from Zeta II, a parallel universe or Middle Earth, they are
physical objects.

Even though these devices and their makers/masters may seem to us as
present-day astronauts must appear to the most primitive Bushmen, I really
don't allow myself to doubt their physical existence or impute anything
supernatural or religious to them. I do not think Dr. Vallee does either -- as
least as far as I read his book.

It may be that the U.S. has some of these things somewhere and has discovered
that they are as real -- yet ephemeral -- as a leprechaun's pot 'o gold.  I.e.:
 They've got them, but they can't DO anything with them. Nevertheless they
could exist.  And Lazar may be telling the truth.

If your doubts center around Lazar's still being alive -- in other words, why
was he allowed to "leak & live".  Well, people like Lazar are double-edged
swords.  Nothing gets public attention faster than an untimely death.
Especially if it's the death of someone who's been telling a story. It looks
like Cooper's theories (which coincide with Lazar's revalations) may stem from
Lazar himself.  So if Lazar is authentic -- if his references check -- then the
Cooper sideshow may be just that.  A sideshow, and not the main event.

Anyway, until Lazar is discredited -- or discredits himself -- I'm definitely
prepared to stay with this one.

Best,
  Clark

--- QuickBBS v2.04
 * Origin: -=<ParaNet Alpha(sm)>=- Denver, CO [phone] (1:104/422)
SEEN-BY: 19/19 101/667 104/422 428 114/37 115/876 120/80 132/113 SEEN-BY:
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401


295/417 04 Dec 89 12:31:54
~From:   Usenet News
To:     All
Subj:   Lazar and his Amazing Saucers
Attr:   ------------------------------------------------
~Date: 29 Nov 89 20:47:15 GMT Message-ID: <[e-mail]> Newsgroups:
info.paranet

Hello, paranet friends,

I have been reading the newsletter from paranet for some time now. This is my
first posting.

+I just had an interesting thought...if you had been sitting on the secret +of
S-4 and dreamland for a long while, and had instructions to release the
+information to the public only if it would not cause a crisis, what better
+time to stage-leak the real story, as most of Eastern Europe and the Soviet
+Union call off the cold war?  Perhaps what Reagan was telling Gorbachev +in
their summit conferences is that we'll all hang separately if we don't +hang
together. + +More paranoia from, + +Michael Sloan MacLeod
(amdahl!drivax!macleod)

Regarding Lazar, I just wonder about the fact that we are on the eve of a
summit of great significance to the entire world.  As much as we would all like
to believe this intriguing tale (since so many questions would be answered), I
have to think that our government has a powerful motivation at the moment for
promoting this kind of idea.

Given the credulity of Soviets on this subject, how likely is it that the
Soviet intelligence community is going crazy right now trying to verify this
story before the summit?  Is this all designed to throw Gorbachev off balance?

If our government tried to announce such a thing (supposing it is false) they
would be innundated with requests for demonstrations and explanations, which
would ruin the ruse.  But the region where these events are alleged to have
occurred would be under constant scrutiny by Soviet agents, given the history
of the area.  The agents assigned to the area probably observed the news
programs with great interest.

Then there is the involvement of Cooper.  Readers will have to judge for
themselves the significance of this.

        Here is my scenario: Lazar works for some intelligence outfit.  His
background was wiped out (ineffectively) in the hopes that the attempt to erase
his history would give credibility to his story.  Others that come forward are
part of the same effort.  Some are actual believers who have been convinced by
the thoroughness of the deception.

The information is released in controlled packets, perhaps some intelligence
leaks were provided directly to Soviet agents to prepare them to be receptive
when the television program came on. It all is building up so that the climax
of the scam occurs just before the summit.  The result is that Gorbachev is off
balance and Bush has the advantage.


I think this is much more likely than the possibility that what Lazar says is
true, for these reasons:

1)  If this project were so top secret as Lazar says, he would
    never have appeared on that program.  Lazar said they knew
    he was going to leak in advance.  If that were true he
    would have been dead.  They would not wait until now to
    take sniper shots at him, and if they did, they wouldn't
    miss.

2)  Bill Cooper has discredited himself, and he appears to be
    involved.

3)  After reading on the subject, I am inclined to believe that
    the spiritual/supernatural/extradimensional aspect is the
    most significant.  I could go into this, but let me just
    say that I too have been reading Dimensions, and the ideas
    presented there make more sense than anything else I have seen
    on the subject.  This story does not fit the scenario.
    Instead it fits into a neat materialistic mold which would
    allow the military to control the phenomena by purely
    physical means.  This does not mean it is necessarily bogus,
    it just makes me suspicious.  It is too neat; too easy and pat.

4)  The gov't has a history of "leaking" bogus UFO stories.

5)  They are motivated to try to maintain the upper hand by the
    significance of this summit, in light of political developments.
    This whole thing may have been generated directly in response
    to developments in Eastern Europe.

6)  The whole thing may be relatively unimportant to our intelligence
    community - just another little game to try to keep the other
    guys confused, and good practice at generating disinformation.


Sorry, it's just too bizarre to believe without tons of corroboration from many
independent sources.

Cheers, --Steve
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
          {uunet,sun}!convex!swarren; [e-mail]

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369/417 11 Dec 89 18:47:49
~From:   [e-mail]
To:     All
Subj:   Info-Paranet #94
Attr:   ------------------------------------------------
~From:   [e-mail] Date: 11 Dec 89 07:28:28 GMT Message-ID:
<[e-mail]> Newsgroups: info.paranet

~From: isis!uunet!sparta!sun!esanborn (Ed Sanborn)


Mike C.,

  I seemed to have missed 'Info-Paranet #94'.  If you could please send an
email of this I'd appreciate it.  Looking forward to the Video-tapes of Lazar
happenings.  Please feel free to fill the tapes with misc. at end.

  Also, what's this business of missing coverage of these broadcasts?  Maybe
this should be directed at Robert Klinn but it would be a shame if we and quite
possibly a tragedy if we aren't able to monitor the complete broadcasts.  What
is the price status if someone wanted to get copies of the broadcasts from the
TV stations?

                                                   Thanks,

                                                        Ed Sanborn
                                                        uunet!sparta!esanborn
                                                        w: [phone]
                                                        h: [phone]

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394/417 14 Dec 89 19:14:53
~From:   [e-mail]
To:     All
Subj:   Lazar/115
Attr:   ------------------------------------------------
~From: [e-mail] Date: 14 Dec 89 16:41:19 GMT Message-ID:
<[e-mail]> Newsgroups: info.paranet

~From: [e-mail] (John H. Chalmers Jr.)

Is there any independent confirmation that a nuclear explosion occurred in the
atmosphere in 1986 as Lazar claims? The signature of such a blast if due to 115
would be completly different from a fission or fusion explosion.  there would
be no fission products from an antimatter explosion an dprobably much less
induced radioactivity. Is athere any data on this supposed event in Nevada. Try
the anti-nuke or environmetal groups. --John

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404/417 15 Dec 89 22:55:00 From:   Michael Corbin To:
[e-mail] Subj:   Lazar/115 Attr:
------------------------------------------------
 > Is there any independent confirmation that a nuclear
 > explosion occurred
 > in the atmosphere in 1986 as Lazar claims? The signature of
 > such a blast
 > if due to 115 would be completly different from a fission
 > or fusion
 > explosion.  there would be no fission products from an
 > antimatter explosion
 > an dprobably much less induced radioactivity. Is athere any
 > data on this
 > supposed event in Nevada. Try the anti-nuke or environmetal
 > groups.

Very good point.  This and others aspects are currently being investigated in
the Nevada region.  Most of the aspects of the historocity of the Air Force's
acquisition of 90,000 acres is correct, Lazar seems to rely heavily upon these
types of activities as a means to support his claims.  However, this does not
mean that they are even inter-related to one another or to his experience.  I
found the land grab inception to Lazar's story very interesting.  The way that
it was presented to the television public made it sound as though it was very
mysterious, however, the Air Force did not say that their authority to do the
act of acquiring the land was higher than the United States, but only higher
than the Air Force.  Surely, other departments of the government are at a
higher level than the Air Force, and with this in mind plus the fact that
Dreamland has been known to be super-secret for over forty years does not
support Lazar's claims.  If there was an unscheduled nuclear test in 1987, this
may be suspect.  I am very interested in that test and whether it was authentic
and if there was anything unusual registered by anyone monitoring the
atmosphere.

[CUT:]
Lazar:
I  don't think that you can ever synthesize  it.  The amount
of -- You essentially have to assemble it by bombarding it with
protons; if atom by atom, it would take an infinite amount of power
and an infinite amount of time.  The substance has to come from a
place where super-heavy elements  could have been produced naturally.

[CUT:]
Knapp:
And what sort of place is that?

[CUT:]
Lazar:
Next to a much larger sun where there would be  greater mass.
Maybe a binary star system -- a super-nova  -- somewhere where there is
just a bigger release of energy to synthesize these things naturally.
It has to be a  naturally occurring element.

[CUT:]
Knapp:
115  is the fuel for the anti-matter reactors, he says.  By bombarding
115, anti-matter is produced.  A kilo of anti-matter could produce the
energy equivalent of 46 ten-megaton hydrogen bombs, and comparing the
energy potential of anti-matter to, say, the Hoover Dam, would be
like comparing planets to grains of sand.  115 could also make one
heck of a bomb.

[CUT:]
Lazar:
We're talking about hundreds and hundreds of megatons off a small
piece of it.  It sounds incredible, but total conversion of matter
to energy would release that amount of power.  And it isn't that
difficult to take -- get the energy out of it.  So it's not something
you'd ever want to fall into anyone's hands.

[CUT:]
Knapp:
The  dangers associated with 115 and anti-matter may be the reason
Lazar was hired to work at S-4.  There was an accident, he says,
back in April 1987, an accident that was passed off as an unannounced
nuclear test.

[CUT:]
Lazar:
Some people got killed.  I was told flat out I was one of the people
that were to replace these guys.

[CUT:]
Knapp:
Is this why the government might be keeping the whole matter a
secret?  Because of the military potential of alien technology?
Lazar says he believes the Soviet Union was once  part of our
research on the flying disks, but that the U.S. kicked the Soviets
out  after  making  some sort  of  discovery.  He also believes the
program at S-4 is operated with funds allocated to Star Wars research,
but says he can't prove it.  Some  UFO researchers suspect the
government is test flying alien craft so that it can one day master
the technology and claim it was  made in the good old U.S.A., thus
obscuring the possibility of alien visitations.

[CUT:]
Stanton  T. Friedman:
I think they have the duty to inform us.  At least to the bare bones
of what's going on.  I  don't want technological stuff put out on the
table.  I mean, I  worked on classified projects for 15 years, and
I don't think we need another  weapon's delivery system.  But I
think the government does have the responsibility to release information
that, indeed, the  planet is being visited.  Probably it should be done
in conjunction with the Soviets.

[CUT:]
Lazar:
I don't think that it will get to that level.  They're not going to have
a fleet of them and fly them  around, and I don't think you need to do
that.  If you're looking at them from a weapons point of view, you're
looking at an incredibly powerful device.  You only need one that
operates.  You don't ever need to come public with it.  You may want to
learn more about it should it ever break which is -- might be -- what
they're doing.

[CUT:]
Knapp:
They've got one --

[CUT:]
Lazar:
-- Oh, they've got a few.  Yeah.

[CUT:]
Lazar is the first to admit that his story is tough to swallow.
He submitted  to polygraph exams, has opened up sensitive parts of
his personal life, and fully expects to be ridiculed or perhaps
punished for his revelations.
[END CUT.]
_______

[The hypnotherapy discussion of Segment 7 further below has been
totally replaced by the following short summary included in the
broadcast of 11/25/89.  Note that reference to a mind-control technique
by Lazar's U.S. government employers has been excised.]

Knapp:
Lazar wanted to recall further details from reports he says he read
at S-4, so he went to Layne Keck, a licensed and experienced
hypnotherapist.  Keck makes no exaggerated claims about the powers
of hypnosis, but he did help dredge up some specifics from the
reports.  He is confident about that, that  Lazar is not making this up.

Keck:
His subconscious mind believes TOTALLY all of these things.

<Continued next message...>

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327/417 07 Dec 89 17:13:00
~From:   Robert Klinn
To:     All
Subj:   UFOs: The Best Evidence Altered?
Attr:
------------------------------------------------
(C) 1989 ParaNet Information Service

"UFO's:  The Best Evidence":  The Altered Version

The two versions of "UFO's: The Best Evidence":

Version One:
Nine parts (10-15 minutes each):
November 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 13, 14, 15, and 16, 1989

Version Two:
November 25, 1989

On-air, producer/newsman George Knapp had said the 11/25/89, 8:00 p.m. to
10:00 p.m., broadcast of "UFO's:  The Best Evidence" (KLAS-TV, Channel 8
in Las Vegas), would include the substance as well as UPDATES of the
material broadcast earlier as the nine-part series with the same title.

At the end of the ninth segment of the series, he also had said his
investigation -- pursuant to physicist Robert Lazar's and others' claims
about recovered alien vehicles at Area 51 or S-4 inside the U.S.
Government's Nevada Test Site -- "will continue."

And earlier in the series, Knapp had said this was "only the beginning,"
that the investigation is "by no means over."

On 11/21/89, 10:00 p.m. until 1:00 a.m., speaking on KVEG 840-AM Radio's
Billy Goodman Happening, Lazar himself had said he was informed that
Knapp's upcoming 11/25/89, two-hour, KLAS-TV report would contain "much
more information" than Knapp's earlier, nine-part broadcasts.

But Knapp later told me that although he is personally interested in more
UFO material about Area 51, there is no more budget at his station to
pursue it.

Significant previously-broadcast segments are missing from the 11/25/89
version.  Nothing new -- no promised "updates" -- has been added.  On the
contrary, highly pertinent descriptions by Lazar, hypnotherapist Layne
Keck, and Knapp himself have been cut -- in perhaps the most interesting
and revealing places.

Knapp -- apparently sincere and hardworking -- now gives "time constraints"
imposed by the number of commercials that had to be inserted into the
11/25/89 version as the reason for the cuts and the lack of additional
material.

He justifies the almost entire elimination of Segment Seven
(originally broadcast 11/14/89) -- including Lazar's explanations of
the alien element 115, time warp and its relation to gravity waves,
the production of gravity waves, and the military potential of the
alien technology --  by dismissing that material as merely "details."

Surprisingly, Knapp graciously said, "I apologize."

Military potential --  not only of the recovered alien craft but
perhaps of more earthly forces -- may have been revealed by other cuts,
including the stunning suspicion by Lazar that "his government employers
used some sort of mind control technique to prevent him from disclosing
too much about S-4" and the discussion by hypnotherapist Keck of
Lazar's possibly being subjected to tremendous fear, threats, and
chemicals.

And what might be the military implications of this portion of
Lazar's statement as broadcast in Segment 6 (11/13/89) but cut from
the 11/25/89 version?

"One of them looked like it was hit with  some  sort  of a
projectile.  It had a large  hole  in  the bottom  and a large hole in
the top with the metal bent out  like some  sort  of, you know, large
caliber 4- or 5-inch projectile had gone through it."

Was the following stuff cut just to make room for commercials?

Knapp:
115  is the fuel for the anti-matter reactors, he says.   By
bombarding 115, anti-matter is produced.  A kilo of anti-matter
could produce the energy equivalent of 46 ten-megaton hydrogen bombs,
and comparing the energy potential of anti-matter to, say, the Hoover
Dam, would be like comparing planets to grains of sand. 115 could also
make one heck of a bomb.

Lazar:
We're talking about hundreds and hundreds of megatons off a small piece
of it.  It sounds incredible, but total conversion  of  matter  to
energy would release that amount  of power.  And it isn't that difficult
to take. . .get the energy out of it.  So it's not something you'd ever
want to fall into anyone's hands.

Knapp:
The  dangers associated with 115 and anti-matter may be the reason Lazar
was hired to work at S-4.  There was an accident, he says, back in
April 1987.  An accident that was passed off as an unannounced nuclear
test.

Lazar:
Some people got killed.  I was told flat out I was one of the people
that were to replace these guys.

<Continued next message...>

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328/417 07 Dec 89 17:15:00
~From:   Robert Klinn
To:     Robert Klinn
Subj:   UFOs: The Best Evidence Altered?
Attr:
------------------------------------------------
Part 2
<...Continued from previous message>

_______

The following appeared in the original nine segments but NOT in
the 11/25/89 broadcast.  To retain context, some uncut material has
been included.

Segment 5 (11/10/89):

Lazar:
Well, I am telling the truth.  I've tried to prove that.  What's
going on up there could be the most important event in history.
You're talking about contact, physical contact and proof from another
system, another planet, another intelligence.  That's got to be the
biggest event in history -- period.  And, it's real and it's there.

[CUT:]
Lazar (continuing):
And I had an extremely small part in it.  I'm  convinced that what
I saw is absolute proof of that.  There is no way that we could have
created those disks.  There is no way we could have made the disks,
the power supplies, anything that goes with it.
[END CUT.]

Segment 5 (11/10/89):

[CUT:]
Lazar  says he has no intention of going on any UFO  lecture circuit.
He is not looking to do any additional interviews.  In fact, he was not
too crazy about doing this one.  He did it after certain unfavorable
things started happening in his life, and he did it because he feels
that whoever is running the show up at S-4  is  perpetrating a fraud on
the American people and the scientific community.
[END CUT.]

Segment 6 (11/13/89):

Lazar:
I gave everything simple names -- the "top hat" one and, you know, the
"jello mold"; and the "sport model" operated without any hitches at all.
I mean, it looked new.  If I know what a new flying  saucer looks like.

[CUT:]
Lazar (continuing):
One of them looked like it was hit with some sort of a projectile.
It had a large  hole in the bottom  and a large hole in the top with the
metal bent out  like some  sort of, you know, large-caliber 4- or 5-inch
projectile had gone through it.
[END CUT.]

Segment 6 (11/13/89):

Knapp:
Bob Lazar isn't the only person to claim "inside  knowledge" of the
flying  disks at the test site -- he is  just the only person to say
so publicly.  We have communicated with several people who say they
know of the saucer program.  A technician in a highly sensitive position
told us it is "common knowledge among those  with high security
clearances that recovered alien  disks are  stored at the Nevada Test
Site."  A Las Vegas professional, who once served in the military and
was stationed at the Test Site,  says he saw a flying disk land
outside the boundaries of Area  51 --

[CUT:]
Knapp (continuing):
-- that it was quickly surrounded by security personnel and that he
was taken away and debriefed for several hours.
[END CUT.]

Segment 6 (11/13/89):

Knapp:
A man who once  worked at Groom Lake as a technician, at our
request, wrote this letter explaining how he inadvertently walked
into the wrong hangar  and saw what appeared to be a large metallic
disk under a tarp.

[CUT:]
Knapp (continuing):
It was being examined by men in lab coats.
[END CUT.]

Knapp (continuing):
And an airman who worked at Nellis at a  radar installation says he
and his fellow servicemen watched over a period of five nights,
unusual objects flying over the Groom Mountains.  He says the radar
images indicate the objects zoomed into range at speeds of 7,000 miles
per hour and then would  stop on a dime, and that nothing we have is
capable of doing that.  The  airman says that when word of his sighting
got out, he was ordered to turn off his radar sensors for that area
and told to keep quiet about the matter because it did not happen.

Segment 6 (11/13/89):

[CUT:]
Knapp:
Tomorrow, more troubling allegations about the military potential
of alien technology.
[END CUT.]

<Continued in Next Message...>

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329/417 07 Dec 89 17:17:00
~From:   Robert Klinn
To:     Robert Klinn
Subj:   UFOs: The Best Evidence Altered?
Attr:
------------------------------------------------
Part 3
<...Continued from previous Message>
========
Segment 7 (11/14/89):
(Essentially ALL of Segment 7 has been cut.)

[CUT:]
Knapp:
Just over this ridge [showing a photo of Area  51], tucked inside
the test tubes of a hidden government base, the secrets of the
universe may be unfolding.  The area is designated S-4, and according
to one man who claims to have worked there, S-4 harbors scientific
achievements that would astonish our deepest thinkers.  It is
technology that, if it exists, could change the world, but is allegedly
bottled up by military minds.

[CUT:]
Lazar:
It's not an overall government project.  It's not something that
Congress appropriates money for.  Two billion is for this, 15
billion for flying saucers, eight billion for Star Wars:  it doesn't
go like that.  I don't believe that they  have any knowledge of it at
all.

[CUT:]
Knapp:
The technology that Bob Lazar says he saw extends far beyond flying
saucers.  An anti-matter reactor allows the spaceships to produce their
own  gravitational fields, he  says.   Such a technology, if real, would
answer UFO skeptics who argue that aliens could never visit Earth
because the distances  between worlds are too great, even at the speed
of light.

[CUT:]
Lazar:
Gravity distorts time and space.  Just like if you had a water bed and
put a bowling ball in the middle.  It warps it down like  that --
that's exactly what happens to space.  Imagining that you were in a
spacecraft that could  exert  a tremendous gravitational field by itself,
you could sit on any particular place and turn on the gravity generator
and actually warp space and time, and fold it.  By shutting that off,
you'd  click back and you'd be a tremendous distance from where you
were, but time would not have even moved because you essentially shut
it off.  I mean it is so far fetched, people -- it's difficult for
people to grasp, and as stubborn as the scientific community  is,
they'll never buy it.  But this is, in fact, that's just what happens.

[CUT:]
Knapp:
Actually,  Lazar's explanation is very close to mainstream scientific
thought and can be traced directly to Einstein.  The difference is,
scientists regard it as theory only.  There is much that science still
doesn't know.

[CUT:]
Dale  Etheridge (Scientist):
There are people who say that our main problem with that is we don't
know what gravity is.  It's this magical force that acts at a
distance.  We can describe  how it  behaves -- that's what the law
of gravity is -- it's  just  a description  of  how it behaves.  But
it says nothing  about what gravity really is.

[CUT:]
Knapp:
We'll use Etheridge as our barometer of scientific thought.  He
says we cannot produce gravity, that there's no such thing  as a
working anti-matter reactor, and that we have yet to figure out a way
to get around the speed of  light.  He  also concedes, though, such
things are possible.

[CUT:]
Etheridge:
Yeah.  And really we don't know what's possible,  as there could be
other civilizations out there -- several hundred years or so, a
thousand years, even a million years ahead  of us -- that have found
a way to circumvent this.  We have no way of knowing for sure.

[CUT:]
Lazar:
Well, the thing is, when you harness gravity, you harness everything.
It's  the missing piece in physics right now.  We really know very
little about gravity.

[CUT:]
Knapp:
At least that's the way it used to be.  Lazar says the technology to
harness gravity not only exists but is being tested at S-4.  And if
such technology is beyond human capabilities, it must have come from
someplace else.  It's more than conjecture, he  says, because he also
saw an element that cannot be found  on the periodic chart.  The element,
called 115, can be stored  in lead casings much like this one
[showing a lead circular container].  Lazar says the government has
500 pounds of it, and it cannot be made on Earth.

[CUT:]
Lazar:
It would be almost impossible; well, it is impossible to synthesize
an element that heavy here on Earth.

[CUT:]
Knapp:
At least right now.

<Continued Next message...>

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330/417 07 Dec 89 17:18:00
~From:   Robert Klinn
To:     Robert Klinn
Subj:   UFOs: The Best Evidence Altered?
Attr:
------------------------------------------------
Part 4
<...Continued from previous message>
[CUT:]
Lazar:
I  don't think that you can ever synthesize  it.  The amount
of -- You essentially have to assemble it by bombarding it with
protons; if atom by atom, it would take an infinite amount of power
and an infinite amount of time.  The substance has to come from a
place where super-heavy elements  could have been produced naturally.

[CUT:]
Knapp:
And what sort of place is that?

[CUT:]
Lazar:
Next to a much larger sun where there would be  greater mass.
Maybe a binary star system -- a super-nova  -- somewhere where there is
just a bigger release of energy to synthesize these things naturally.
It has to be a  naturally occurring element.

[CUT:]
Knapp:
115  is the fuel for the anti-matter reactors, he says.  By bombarding
115, anti-matter is produced.  A kilo of anti-matter could produce the
energy equivalent of 46 ten-megaton hydrogen bombs, and comparing the
energy potential of anti-matter to, say, the Hoover Dam, would be
like comparing planets to grains of sand.  115 could also make one
heck of a bomb.

[CUT:]
Lazar:
We're talking about hundreds and hundreds of megatons off a small
piece of it.  It sounds incredible, but total conversion of matter
to energy would release that amount of power.  And it isn't that
difficult to take -- get the energy out of it.  So it's not something
you'd ever want to fall into anyone's hands.

[CUT:]
Knapp:
The  dangers associated with 115 and anti-matter may be the reason
Lazar was hired to work at S-4.  There was an accident, he says,
back in April 1987, an accident that was passed off as an unannounced
nuclear test.

[CUT:]
Lazar:
Some people got killed.  I was told flat out I was one of the people
that were to replace these guys.

[CUT:]
Knapp:
Is this why the government might be keeping the whole matter a
secret?  Because of the military potential of alien technology?
Lazar says he believes the Soviet Union was once  part of our
research on the flying disks, but that the U.S. kicked the Soviets
out  after  making  some sort  of  discovery.  He also believes the
program at S-4 is operated with funds allocated to Star Wars research,
but says he can't prove it.  Some  UFO researchers suspect the
government is test flying alien craft so that it can one day master
the technology and claim it was  made in the good old U.S.A., thus
obscuring the possibility of alien visitations.

[CUT:]
Stanton  T. Friedman:
I think they have the duty to inform us.  At least to the bare bones
of what's going on.  I  don't want technological stuff put out on the
table.  I mean, I  worked on classified projects for 15 years, and
I don't think we need another  weapon's delivery system.  But I
think the government does have the responsibility to release information
that, indeed, the  planet is being visited.  Probably it should be done
in conjunction with the Soviets.

[CUT:]
Lazar:
I don't think that it will get to that level.  They're not going to have
a fleet of them and fly them  around, and I don't think you need to do
that.  If you're looking at them from a weapons point of view, you're
looking at an incredibly powerful device.  You only need one that
operates.  You don't ever need to come public with it.  You may want to
learn more about it should it ever break which is -- might be -- what
they're doing.

[CUT:]
Knapp:
They've got one --

[CUT:]
Lazar:
-- Oh, they've got a few.  Yeah.

[CUT:]
Lazar is the first to admit that his story is tough to swallow.
He submitted  to polygraph exams, has opened up sensitive parts of
his personal life, and fully expects to be ridiculed or perhaps
punished for his revelations.
[END CUT.]
_______

[The hypnotherapy discussion of Segment 7 further below has been
totally replaced by the following short summary included in the
broadcast of 11/25/89.  Note that reference to a mind-control technique
by Lazar's U.S. government employers has been excised.]

Knapp:
Lazar wanted to recall further details from reports he says he read
at S-4, so he went to Layne Keck, a licensed and experienced
hypnotherapist.  Keck makes no exaggerated claims about the powers
of hypnosis, but he did help dredge up some specifics from the
reports.  He is confident about that, that  Lazar is not making this up.

Keck:
His subconscious mind believes TOTALLY all of these things.

<Continued next message....>

--- FD 2.00
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331/417 07 Dec 89 17:19:00
~From:   Robert Klinn
To:     Robert Klinn
Subj:   UFOs: The Best Evidence Altered?
Attr:
------------------------------------------------
Part 5 Conclusion
<....Continued from previous message>
===================

[CUT:]
Knapp:
His desire to explain what really happened at S-4 took him to Layne
Keck, a licensed, experienced hypnotherapist who quietly and
privately tried to help Lazar remember details of the many briefing
papers he says he read.

[CUT:]
Keck:
I  have no clue as to what we were getting to, and he started saying
that there were pictures of what I thought was DESKS on the wall.
Well as it turned out, it was DISKS that he was referring to.  And
at that moment I realized we were into something that was pretty heavy.

[CUT:]
Knapp:
Keck does not exaggerate his claims for hypnosis.  He regards it
as a useful tool for uncovering some lost memories.  He says
people are quite capable of lying under hypnosis but says the technique
can be of help in determining truth.  What's his opinion of Lazar's
truthfulness?

[CUT:]
Keck:
It tells me that his subconscious mind believes totally all of
these things.

[CUT:]
Lazar has long suspected that his government employers used some
sort of  mind-control technique to prevent him from disclosing too
much about S-4.  While he says he has vivid conscious memories of
the saucers and other technology, there were other memories that even
now remained locked, which is why he sought out Keck in the first place.
Keck is convinced that someone really did mess with Lazar's head.

[CUT:]
Keck:
Also they used tremendous fear in threatening those in his environment
if he did bring this information forth.  Also, it appears that maybe
there were some chemicals used.

[CUT:]
Lazar:
Nah, I'm not going to change anyone's mind.  That's not my intention.
I'm  just relaying the experience -- the job that I went through.
It is a fantastic thing.  It's a fantastic  story.  I can't take people
there to show them what was going on, and you know, I don't expect
anyone to believe it.

[CUT:]
Knapp:
What if he is right?  What if aliens are here?  How would this change
our view of the world?  Our most fundamental beliefs?  Religion?
We'll know more on that tomorrow.
[END CUT.]
_______

Also MISSING from the 11/25/89 version are Knapp's opinions and
comments before and after most of the nine previously broadcast segments.

His extended comments at the end of the ninth segment are particularly
bold.  He says:  "What we have learned" is that "the Government has
lied" and "has discredited UFO witnesses."

Knapp suggests that any future Congessional UFO inquiry must be "without
ties to the CIA" or other intelligence agencies.

Then turning from a co-anchor and looking into the camera, he seems
to speak to particular individuals:

"There are people probably watching right now. . . who know a lot
about this subject."  And he asks them to call him.

Knapp ends the ninth segment by assuring his viewers that "the
investigation will continue."



                      Info-ParaNet Newsletters, Number 109

                           Monday, December 25th 1989

Today's Topics:

                         George Knapp Interview/Lazar

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

~From: paranet!p0.f422.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG!Michael.Corbin
~Subject: Knapp Interview #1
~Date: 24 Dec 89 05:08:00 GMT

DATE OF UPLOAD:  December 23, 1989
ORIGIN OF UPLOAD:  ParaNet Information Service
CONTRIBUTED BY: Chuck Harder/Special Correspondent to ParaNet
========================================================
(C) Copyright 1989 ParaNet Information Service
All Rights Reserved unless copyrighted by Author.
========================================================

INTERVIEW  WITH  GEORGE KNAPP OF KLAS-TV (LAS VEGAS,  NEVADA)  ON
NOVEMBER  17,  1989.   INTERVIEWED  BY  CHUCK  HARDER,  HOST  AND
MODERATOR OF 'FOR THE PEOPLE' OF THE SUN RADIO NETWORK.

                          CHUCK HARDER
My guest has (now) called in and I'm going to run down who he  is
and where he's from for a number of reasons, some of them for his
own protection.  George, are you there...

                          GEORGE KNAPP
Hello Chuck.

                          CHUCK HARDER
Please tell us, you are George Knapp, right...

                          GEORGE KNAPP
That's right.

                          CHUCK HARDER
George, what do you do for a living?

                          GEORGE KNAPP
I'm  a  journalist with KLAS-TV in Las Vegas, the  CBS  affiliate
here.

                          CHUCK HARDER
So you are a TV newsman...

                          GEORGE KNAPP
Right.

                          CHUCK HARDER
And you work for Channel 8, KLAS-TV in Las Vegas, Nevada...

                          GEORGE KNAPP
Right.

                          CHUCK HARDER
I  understand  that  you have come  upon  some  very  interesting
information and you've done some special reports, could you  tell
us about it...?

                          GEORGE KNAPP
Well  we  just  finished a nine-part series -- what  may  be  the
longest series that's ever been done on this subject dealing with
UFOs.

Our  research actually started about two and a half years ago,  a
fellow named John Lear, the son of the guy who invented the  Lear
Jet brought some of this information to our attention.  In May of
this year, Mr. Lear introduced us to a fellow who claims to  have
worked  at a secret base designated S-4...on a top-secret  Nevada
test  site...the  fellow said that he worked on  flying  saucers,
that  the technology was not from Earth, and we  interviewed  him
live  in silhouette in May, the response was incredible...we  got
response  from Japan, parts of that interview aired on  radio  in
Europe, and six different European countries...so we decided with
this much interest we might want to take a look at the subject in
more depth.

We  started doing that and the first thing we found out  is  that
really  UFOs  have  not been given a fair shake  by  science,  by
government,  by religion and especially by journalism.   Millions
of  people  have seen UFOs, millions more believe...I  think  the
latest  Gallup  poll shows about 70 percent  of  college-educated
Americans  believe that there's something to it, but  because  of
the tabloid aspects...'The Girl Who Gives Birth to 52 UFO Babies'
--  kind  of things in the National Enquirer, people  have  shied
away  from  it...Serious  people have  shied  away.   Scientists,
although  they might be interested in searching the universe  for
radio signals really don't want to look in their own back yard --
they can't get grants...people would laugh at them.  Journalism -
- the coverage is generally condescending and quirky,  especially
by  the networks, as in the coverage of this UFO that  supposedly
landed in the USSR, people making fun of it...so, we figured  out
that millions of people want to know as Roy Neary, the guy in the
'Close Encounters' movie said, 'What's going on?'  So we  started
investigating it.  The focal point of the story being this fellow
who  said he worked at S-4.  We broke his identity  last  Friday.
His name is Bob Lazar, he is a former scientist who worked at Los
Alamos  National  Labs,  he  is a physicist...we  did  a  lot  of
checking on him and found interestingly enough that his life  was
disappearing  around  him.  In other words we called  Los  Alamos
Labs and they said they never heard of him.  We called MIT  where
he  says he went to school and they had never heard of  him.   We
called  for  his Birth records and they had  disappeared...as  if
someone  was  trying to make him a non-person.   We  did  however
confirm  some of the information that he had given us...we  found
newspaper articles from Los Alamos indicating that he had  indeed
worked  there...we found an old telephone book from the lab  with
his name in it, which gave him a certain amount of credibility in
our eyes.  The story he tells is an incredible one.  He was hired
to work at this area called S-4 on the test site, he was flown up
to  a place called Groom Lake -- taken by bus with no windows  to
S-4...the  base  is  built almost to look like its  part  of  the
desert  with  sand covered hanger doors, he goes  inside  and  he
starts reading these briefing papers dealing with UFOs!  Pictures
of  UFOs  on the walls, pictures of aliens,  autopsy  reports  on
alien bodies...things of this nature -- he's pretty amazed.  Then
he sees the discs.  He says there are nine of the discs up there,
they are powered by an anti-matter reactor which produces its own
gravitational  field...technology  that does not  exist  on  this
planet,  and the interesting thing...he thought for a while  that
perhaps  it was just an advanced secret scientific  project  that
our  government  is pursuing until he looked inside  one  of  the
discs and noticed the small furniture...all the chairs were built
like  for children...and then things started coming together  for
him.  Are you with me Chuck?

                          CHUCK HARDER
I'm listening.

                          GEORGE KNAPP
Er, I'm not sure how much detail you want me to go in on...

                          CHUCK HARDER
Oh I think you ought to keep going.

                          GEORGE KNAPP
Well, this fellow was up there for only a few months.  And it was
a  rough place for him to work...the security was so hard and  he
was  being harassed at home, his phones being tapped...plus  he's
on to what he thinks are the secrets of the universe...he  starts
to tell other people about it, confide with close friends.

                          CHUCK HARDER
Ummmmmm.....

                          GEORGE KNAPP
He  had  the  date of a couple of tests and  on  two  consecutive
weekends  he  took  people  up into the  desert  outside  of  the
boundaries  of area S-4, and they video taped the  saucers...what
looks like a saucer coming over the mountains!

                          CHUCK HARDER
Wow...

                          GEORGE KNAPP
We showed that video as well...

                          CHUCK HARDER
Uh-huh....

                          GEORGE KNAPP
Five different people that we interviewed that had gone up  there
confirmed the same story...we also had confirmation of other bits
of  his  story  from other people, a former  security  guard  who
worked  up  there...who said he had seen the  saucers,  a  former
technician...

                          CHUCK HARDER
By  the  way,  excuse me, I have some letters  from  some  people
postmarked  from  that area, one inside of a base, who  tells  me
what you're saying is true.  Keep going.

                          GEORGE KNAPP
Ah,  we also found a Nellis Airman who had been on radar duty  at
Nellis  airbase  which is here just south of the area  that  this
fellow is talking about...he reported numerous times seeing...

                          CHUCK HARDER
George,  excuse me...let me do the half hour news break,  I  want
you to tell your story, I want America to hear it...please  stand
by.

>>>>At  this point the SUN RADIO NETWORK runs the half hour  news
headlines and sports audio package from UPI<<<<

(After news the guest is re-introduced for listeners who may have
just tuned in...)

                          CHUCK HARDER
How many reports did you do, George?

                          GEORGE KNAPP
We did nine total in this series.

                          CHUCK HARDER
Ok, now at the time we went to news on the half hour you told  me
that a scientist named Bob Lazar...

                          GEORGE KNAPP
Right...

                          CHUCK HARDER
Ok,  came  to  you  and came to the  public  and  apparently  was
concerned for his safety because he wanted to tell America or get
news out that - yes, the Federal Government has nine saucers, and
yes they are near...it's near Nellis, is it not?

                          GEORGE KNAPP
Yes.

                          CHUCK HARDER
Cause  I  have letters from people who are at  Nellis.   Some  of
which  don't  want to give their name, some of which  gave  their
name, I have the postmarks.  Tell us now if you would, start  the
story  from the fact that the gentleman has revealed  that  there
are nine of these things.  We're listening and so is America.

                          GEORGE KNAPP
Well,  we  wanted  to  try to confirm as much  of  his  story  as
possible from other sources of course, so we started looking  for
other  people  who  might have knowledge of what's  going  on  up
there...as I mentioned, I found a former security guard who  said
that  he  had  seen  the  saucers up  there,  I  found  a  former
technician who said that he had walked into a room  inadvertently
and saw one under a tarp, we found a Nellis airman who had worked
in  radar  and said that basically he and his fellow  airman  has
seen these things flying over the Groom Mountains at speeds up to
7,000  miles  per  hour on radar...these things would stop  on  a
dime,  so  the  guy knew that this is not your  average  airplane
that's doing this.  We also interviewed the other people who went
with  Lazar  up  on  two consecutive weeks,  they  test  them  on
Wednesdays for some reason,  and videotaped the tests,  saw these
things flying over the mountains and confirmed his story as well.

We put these questions to the Navy, who Lazar says he worked  for
up  there  --  we made Freedom of Information  Act  requests  for
information about the various specific programs he mentioned,  of
course  the Navy denied having any information on  the  programs.
Of  course in those requests we also asked for other  information
about  UFOs, stuff the Navy has already released and they  denied
having that information as well -- so I don't put a lot of  faith
in the FOIA requests.

                          CHUCK HARDER
In  other  words, what you're saying is  that  your  organization
which  is  KLAS-TV  in Las Vegas, plus many  other  UFO  research
groups  have  uncovered many UFO documents  that  the  government
says, 'Yeah, we got them and yeah it's true'...but then when  you
ask them again they say, 'No, we don't have them!'

                          GEORGE KNAPP
Exactly...that's exactly correct!

                          CHUCK HARDER
I  understand  from MUFON and many other groups  that  there  are
somewhere  from  four  to seven  thousand  documents  that  prove
that...yes  these  things exist, copies of the documents  are  in
private  hands, then you go and ask the government and they  say,
'Well, er, no we don't remember...'

                          GEORGE KNAPP
The  government says that they have done these studies  that  say
that  UFOs  are no threat to national  security,  they're  either
psychological aberrations, which means that people are nuts  when
they see them, that's what they feed the public...but behind  the
scenes  they  are  very concerned  about  the  national  security
implications of UFOs that land at nuclear missile bases and can't
be  caught, things of that nature.  So the government  from  what
I've  read  is  very concerned about the  phenomena  and  doesn't
really  understand  it.   The government on the  other  hand  has
outright lied concerning what information it does have...the  CIA
for   example  says  it  doesn't  collect  any   information   on
UFOs...well  that's  just patently not true.  We  have  documents
from  the  CIA, a lot of it is blacked out,  which  mentions  UFO
studies  by  the  CIA,  UFO  research,  CIA-UFO  experts,  agency
personnel who are monitoring the phenomenon, so they have lied to
us all along.  I didn't expect to get any confirmation  regarding
what Lazar has to say, but had to give it a try anyway.

                          CHUCK HARDER
Before  we  went  to the half-hour break you said  that  when  he
looked  inside  one of these discs there were  little  furniture,
give me some information...

                          GEORGE KNAPP
Well  he  feels that they were bringing him along, giving  him  a
piece  at  a time.  He would see a saucer one day,  the  next  he
would see the hanger doors open and see all nine of  them...after
that he got to see the inside of the thing.  He also got to see a
demonstration  of  it.   He  was told to  stand  back  and  watch
this...and  the thing lights up real bright...I guess  the  power
that's  produced  is  incredible, you need to  produce  your  own
gravitational  field  and it raised up, he wasn't  sure  who  was
flying  it or was it remotely or what.  He watched it  raise  up,
did a couple of maneuvers and sat back down.  Part of the  reason
he came forward, not to spill the secrets of the universe or  the
government,  but because the research that's being done up  there
is being handled in a clumsy fashion.  If they have had these for
as  long as forty years, which is what he believes, they  haven't
come  to far in trying to understand them.  Some of the discs  he
said  he saw up there were being taken apart, kind of  a  reverse
archaeology  process to figure out how they worked.   Some of the
research  going on up there is aimed at trying to  duplicate  the
things  that  these machines can do using earth technologies  and
earth  materials and he says it just can't be done.   The key  to
the flying of the things is something he calls 'Element 115'...it
does not exist on our periodic charts,  he believes that wherever
it came from its a naturally occurring element,  he says we  have
500  pounds of this stuff up there,  just a little tiny sliver of
it produces incredible amounts of power.   Its the '115' that  we
will  not be able to duplicate so he thinks...one of the  reasons
that he came forward is because scientists all over the world are
working,  putting  their energy into trying to master the secrets
of  gravity  and the secrets of anti-matter technology  and  here
we've got it up there and they're not doing a very good job  with
it  -- this  little batch of scientists hidden out in the  desert
are trying to figure it out and not doing a very good job...

                          CHUCK HARDER
But this is kind of common with the United States  government...I
read a tremendous amount of material...I read a tremendous amount
of  material...I read five newspapers a day and I'll  find  where
one group in one part of the country is working on a project  and
I'll  get a clipping where another group is working on  the  same
project, I've contacted them and they don't know of each other!

                          GEORGE KNAPP
Yeah,    Yeah   --   that's   exactly   right...he    said    the
compartmentalization  up  there was very severe as well  so  that
nobody had the full picture -- I guess so nobody could spill  the
beans as he has been trying to do.

                          CHUCK HARDER
Alright,  what does he feel the public should know and what  does
he feel should be done?

                          GEORGE KNAPP
Well, he's not on a campaign, what he really wanted to do was  to
save  his  own  life.  He started having some  problems  when  it
became obvious to his employers that he was telling someone  else
about this.

                          CHUCK HARDER
We're talking about Bob Lazar now...

                          GEORGE KNAPP
Bob Lazar...his phone being tapped, people visiting him,  calling
him  up with a single word message -- DEAD -- then they hang  up!
He  tried to arrange meetings with his former supervisor and  the
meetings didn't come off,  he says somebody took a shot at him on
the freeway...obviously he realizes that if they really wanted to
kill  him,  they could.   Maybe perhaps they were just trying  to
shut him up.   He feels that what is going on up there is a crime
against  the entire scientific community...not only the  American
people because we don't know what's going on and we haven't  been
told  alien  technology exists,  but also against the  scientific
community.  So, what else can I tell ya?

                          CHUCK HARDER
What does he say about the aliens?

                          GEORGE KNAPP
He's  reluctant  to talk about that, apparently he did  see  some
aliens up there...

                          CHUCK HARDER
Excuse me, are you telling me there were live aliens?

                          GEORGE KNAPP
Yeah,  he's kind of sketchy on the details of that, and  I  don't
think  I should go much further on that...part of the  discussion
until  I can talk to him, but he has indications that  there  are
aliens up there, at least one...

                          CHUCK HARDER
Live?

                          GEORGE KNAPP
Yeah,  it's pretty wild, I know and I didn't include that in  our
reports  because I couldn't confirm any thing of that  nature,  I
couldn't find anyone else who had seen them up there so...

                          CHUCK HARDER
What did they look like?

                          GEORGE KNAPP
Your  classic  Grey...the  little  big-headed  almond   eyed-grey
skinned being...the same ones in the classic descriptions of  the
UFO literature...he's kind of squeamish talking about it as  well
because it sounds so crazy...

                          CHUCK HARDER
I  don't  think it's crazy at all, there was an article,  let  me
digress for a moment, there was an article yesterday on the front
page of The Wall Street Journal where the FDA that stopped all of
the grapes from Chile last March...apparently somebody laced  two
of  the  grapes with cyanide a couple of hours  before  the  FDA,
stumbled  on them and it was an inside job apparently  while  the
grapes  were in the inspection station...and it was not  done  on
the way, so somebody's lying there -- we're talking of two little
grapes  that  almost  bankrupted the country of  Chile!   If  two
little grapes...and such a story hits the front page of The  Wall
Street  Journal  about the questions about the  truthfulness  and
what happened with the FDA, what about this...how would this ever
get out if they would cover up a story about TWO LITTLE GRAPES?!

                          GEORGE KNAPP
Well,  I tell you we asked the question, the obvious question, if
this is true;  how can the government keep this a secret all this
time?   A  story this big -- the government leaks like a sieve on
other things, how could the coverup exist?

                          CHUCK HARDER
Oh, I'll tell you...

                          GEORGE KNAPP
To  which Lazar responds, this is the easiest...and he asked  the
question to his superiors up there, it's the easiest thing in the
world  to keep a secret because if it does come out, little  bits
and pieces, who's going to believe it?

                          CHUCK HARDER
Exactly...let me, you remember the Condon Report, do you not?

                          GEORGE KNAPP
Yes...

                          CHUCK HARDER
For  those  who  are listening, I  got  into  this  investigation
because I kept getting letters from our listeners who said, Chuck
you ought to investigate this...we've investigated many things in
the  past such as the GM Diesel coverup, we're working on  a  pay
phone  coverup, we've done things with Ralph Nader...and  so  on.
So we started buying the books and contacting UFO  organizations.
I then found that there was a guy named Phil Klass who was always
there...somehow  he as always there and he said  that  everything
was bunk!  And of course, he works for the Aviation Week magazine
which is of course is the mouthpiece for the  Military/Industrial
complex  and they certainly wouldn't want this technology  to  be
out!   I  was also amazed when I saw the stealth  bomber  (tests)
live  on  CNN one Saturday and a small plane landed at  the  same
place, (runway) do you remember that...?

                          GEORGE KNAPP
Yes...

                          CHUCK HARDER
My  question is:  If the Stealth Bomber was so super-secret,  how
could a man and his children land their little tiny plane on  the
same  runway at a super-secret airforce base?  How could he  have
pierced the radar and fighter jets and so forth?  My feeling was,
probably the Stealth Bomber was obsolete and nobody was watching!

                          GEORGE KNAPP
Yeah,  I'd  have  to  agree with you,  because  the  security  up
there...the only thing that comes out of that place is what  they
want out of it.

                          CHUCK HARDER
So what your talking about then, since the Condon Committee, Phil
Klass  and all the of the spokespeople who are supposed  to  know
everything,  what your saying is the ridicule  factor...if  Billy
Bob sees a flying saucer and even has a photo of it and takes  it
to the paper, everybody laughs at him!

                          GEORGE KNAPP
There  are  actual documents the government has  released  (Under
Freedom  of Information Act) that show it has an  active  program
that  started  back in the fifties...the CIA even used  the  term
DEBUNKING,  there  were discussions about using  Walt  Disney  to
produce  cartoons  that made fun of people who  had  seen  flying
saucers...they  were  going to bring Arthur Godfrey in  as  their
spokesperson.   Phil Klass as you mentioned, he's explained  away
UFO  sightings seen by thousands of people as  the  constellation
ORION,  when  you can only see ORION from the other side  of  the
planet.

                          CHUCK HARDER
Uh huh...

                          GEORGE KNAPP
He  uses things like Ball Lightning, plasma balls to explain  the
sightings where plasma balls only last for a few seconds and  the
examples  that he is trying to explain occur in  cloudless  skies
where  there  is  no lightning around.  You  mention  the  Condon
report, that's a perfect example of the kinds of things that  the
government  has done in the past, they commission a  study,  it's
supposed to be THE STUDY, but the guy they hire to run the thing,
Edward Condon had before he even started, that there was  nothing
to UFOs, the government should get out of it, and he also said at
one  point that the authors of UFO books should be  HORSEWHIPPED!
One  of  the  explanations that came from  the  Condon  Committee
witnessed  by  several people, they described it  as,  a  natural
phenomena so rare that it has never been seen before or since!  I
don't think this kind of a thing is an accident!

                          CHUCK HARDER
Ok,  the Soviet Union and Tass gave their report (of a  UFO)  and
from what I have heard there are different kinds of aliens,  some
have been coming here for years and years and it's nothing new...

                          GEORGE KNAPP
Right...

                          CHUCK HARDER
Why  is  it  in some parts of the world (now) they  report  other
types of humanoids and other types of vehicles...I happen to have
beautiful photos of some,  and as I told you  off-the-air,  we're
going  to be releasing them in our upcoming magazine  if  someone
doesn't stick a dagger through my heart...

                          GEORGE KNAPP
You're  talking about the Billy Meier case,  if you want to touch
on that, we also did some investigation on that...

                          CHUCK HARDER
Ok, go ahead.

                          GEORGE KNAPP
Billy Meier,  I've always been intrigued by that,  and wanted  to
check  them  out.   Its been pretty much written-off by  the  UFO
community  but when we put questions to them about the case  they
can't explain exactly why so we traveled to Phoenix and talked to
Lee  Elders one of the lead investigators on the Billy Meier case
and  started  going  over the  evidence.   The  photos  had  been
analyzed  by independent experts,  the film footage and video had
been  analyzed,  the metal sample had been confirmed as something
we  don't have -- technology of cold fusion was used  to  produce
this metal,  the landing sites,  the strange circular patterns in
the  grass  that  are now only gaining attention in  Britain  and
other  countries,  all of this stuff had never been  pretty  much
discounted  by  the  UFO community because  Elders  and  Wendelle
Stevens   had   gone  outside  of  the  UFO  community   to   get
confirmation.   The  UFO  people were kept out of it,  the  Billy
Meier  case I think exemplifies the biggest weakness  in  UFOLOGY
and  that's  the  jealousy that permeates  the  field...everybody
wants  to be the only one with the real story of  UFOs,  so  they
kind  of  written this guy off only because he  didn't  cooperate
with them.

                          CHUCK HARDER
We  have been able to get some photos from a source who has  some
negatives  that  were just recently located...some from ten  feet
away,  I used to be in the motion picture business.   If they are
models  they  cost thousands of dollars and I doubt if  a  simple
Swiss farmer could have done it...

                          GEORGE KNAPP
I'd agree with ya,  the reason we got interested in Billy  Meier,
it  goes back to Lazar,  was because Bob Lazar says,  the  saucer
that  he  saw fly,  he dubbed it the sport model,  was  the  same
saucer in the Meier photos, exactly the same.

                          CHUCK HARDER
The new ones or the old ones?

                          GEORGE KNAPP
The new one.

                          CHUCK HARDER
Ok, that's the one we've got.

                          GEORGE KNAPP
Going  back to the things he saw (Lazar) at S-4,  he saw the nine
saucers, he said all nine of them were different, like we got the
variety  pack,  but  the one he saw fly was like the one  in  the
Meier  photo.   (There  are  Three types  photographed  by  Billy
Meier.)

That's  why we decided to check out the Meier part of  the  (UFO)
story.

>>>>At this point Chuck Harder tells George Knapp that there is a
break coming up and after the break would he please tell Mr.  and
Mrs. America what they should do to get the truth.<<<<

                          CHUCK HARDER
I  hope that Mr.  and Mrs.  America make note of the name  George
Knapp and Bob Lazar so that if anything ever happens to them, you
know why.

                          GEORGE KNAPP
Someone  should  tell  us what's going on...TV  and  movies  have
conditioned  us...we  won't panic...Jimmy Carter when he ran  for
President  promised that if he was elected that he vowed to  open
all the UFO files and he didn't -- we wrote to him asking why and
he  didn't respond.   We want the government to come  clean.   If
that  takes a Congressional Investigation...that's something that
should be looked at.  If it is launched we have to make sure that
there  are no CIA,  contractors and the like  involved  otherwise
people  aren't  going to believe it.   We've seen enough of  this
whitewash stuff over the years.  If there's nothing to the story,
then open up the files and prove it to us!

                          CHUCK HARDER
OK,  have the government let the press into these areas and don't
first clean them out...

=================================================================
1117NAP.UFO

--
Michael Corbin - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



********To have your comments in the next issue, send electronic mail to********
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******************The**End**of**Info-ParaNet**Newsletter************************

$
 Interrupt

$


                      Info-ParaNet Newsletters, Number 112

                          Thursday, December 28th 1989

Today's Topics:

                              Blue Book Expungement
                             MJ-12 Document - HOAX!
                                Re: Lazar/Area51
                           Re: Info-Paranet Newsletter
                            KVEG/Lazar Transcript #1
                            KVEG/Lazar Transcript #2
                            KVEG/Lazar Transcript #3
                            KVEG/Lazar Transcript #4

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

~From: paranet!f37.n114.z1.FIDONET.ORG!Jim.Speiser
~Subject: Blue Book Expungement
~Date: 27 Dec 89 05:59:00 GMT

I must say I am very distressed at the news that all the names are being
excised from the Blue Book files ("Crawdaddy" Magazine article by Jim
Hougan). Does anyone know why this is being done? Can the Privacy Act be
invoked ex post facto like this?

It seems to me that UFOlogy has a big political issue right here, that
many otherwise contentious groups could unite behind. I certainly hope
the big UFO magazines run editorials on this.

Jim

--
Jim Speiser - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


~From: paranet!f37.n114.z1.FIDONET.ORG!Jim.Speiser
~Subject: MJ-12 Document - HOAX!
~Date: 27 Dec 89 06:42:00 GMT

As Robert Sheaffer reported here earlier, one of the MJ-12 documents has
finally been shown - CONCLUSIVELY - to have been hoaxed. Included with
the package of documents received in photographic form by Jaime Shandera
was a letter from Harry Truman to James Forrestal giving his formal
approval to the MJ-12 project. The signature on that letter is an EXACT
duplicate of one found on a real Truman document, reports Phil Klass in
the latest Skeptical Inquirer. The MJ-12 signature is 3.6% larger than
the legitimate one, which is exactly 3 times the enlargement factor of a
standard Xerox machine (1.2%, in order to cover up the "framing" effect
produced if a document isn't quite as large as the copying glass). Klass
theorizes that it would take three Xeroxing procedures to transfer the
real signature onto the bogus document.

I have to hand it to Phil on this one...the evidence is plain. The
Forrestal letter is a hoax.

The distressing thing in all this is Stan Friedman's stubborn refusal to
back off. Worse, apparently Friedman knew of the conclusions of the
handwriting analysts, yet went right on with his lectures and speeches,
giving no indication that anything was amiss. This does not reflect well
on his other achievements or his overall credibility, which until now I
had held in high regard.

We are still left, however, with the questions of who and why, and with
which noted Western government's blessing.

Jim

--
Jim Speiser - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


~From: paranet!p0.f19.n19.z1.FIDONET.ORG!Bryon.Smith
~Subject: Re: Lazar/Area51
~Date: 27 Dec 89 10:53:00 GMT

In a message to Jim Speiser <12-20-89 01:15> Don Allen wrote:

DA> And what do the "greys" or "aliens" have to do with this??
DA> I dunno...maybe *they* are calling the shots,or maybe
DA> "they"
DA> are the ones making "demands" or *else*..
DA> I still maintain that what we call the "Evil ET's" are the
DA> Nephilim or nefilim of days gone by..(a nasty lot).

You and I agree on that.

I bet we could get an argument out of Brad Steiger though, they say these
"Sons of God" came to help us so to speak.  There might very well be "good"
aliens out there and I think there must be, but these were not them.

...Bryon

--
Bryon Smith - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


~From: ames!pbhya.PacBell.COM!jwste (Jerry Steffler)
~Subject: Re: Info-Paranet Newsletter
~Date: 27 Dec 89 16:19:18 GMT


Here's yet another edition of the UFO news.  The only reason that I'm
writing anything here is that I had replied incorrectly to one of the
ELM questions during fowarding procedures.





--------------------------------------------------------------------


~From: paranet!p0.f422.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG!Michael.Corbin
~Subject: KVEG/Lazar Transcript #1
~Date: 28 Dec 89 01:19:00 GMT

I apologize for the length of these messages, however the material seems
very important to the shape of things.

========================================================
(C) Copyright 1989 ParaNet Information Service
All Rights Reserved unless copyrighted by Author.
========================================================

     Below is the transcript of the Billy Goodman Happening  Show
as it aired on December 20, 1989.  Robert Lazar was the guest  of
Billy Goodman.

==================================================================

12/20/89
Billy Goodman

Goodman:
What exactly does Area S-4 mean?

Lazar:
I really don't know.  It might be referred to as "Site" 4 --
that might be what the "S" is for, but I really don't know.
There are THREE S-4's in all of the Nevada Test Site.  The
nuclear test site itself is a small area, and it has "sites"
or "areas" 1 to 29 or 30.  The S-4 there, I think, is a
nuclear reactor.  There's an S-4 just south of the Tonopah test
range.  And there's an S-4 -- the one that I worked at -- just
south of Groom Lake.

Goodman:
Bob Lazar, while working there as a Government scientist, saw
not only one but as many as nine flying saucers.  And he's
telling the whole world about it.  He wants everybody to know
that in fact there are flying saucers out there.  Last time
you were here, you never really told us what are their plans
with these flying saucers.  Do you have any idea WHY we have
flying saucers at this point?

Lazar:
I guess it's just essentially research.  The idea is to back-
engineer them, to go back and find out how they can be duplicated
using earthly materials and technology.

606:
Is it possible these machines travel in time back and forth?

Lazar:
It's certainly possible.  Certainly, when you create any
artificial gravitational field, you technically move in your
own time.  So technically, you do slip forward when you create
your own intense gravitational field.

606:
BACK in time too?

Lazar:
Theoretically, that's possible.  Exactly how you would do that,
I don't know off the top of my head.

606:
So that could be used like a time machine, right?

Lazar:
Essentially yeah, that is --

606:
For time travel?

Lazar:
-- that is possible.

606:
Wow!  That's really something!

Lazar:
Yeah, that's science-fiction-like.

Fritz, Westlake, California:
Billy, it is sizzling again on the West Coast.  Bob Lazar,
thank you very much for coming on again.  You must come on.
This has got to go nationwide.  The cat is out of the bag.
I'm sure those little gods in S-54 are listening in, and
believe me, it's your best security to come on.  If anything
happens to you, we're all behind you, Bob Lazar -- everybody.
This is like a snowball going down the hill and will become an
avalanche, and ignorance will be wiped out.  We've got to know
the truth -- for once and forever.  They are here!  Let's find
out why they are here and who they are and what their purpose is.

Lazar:
Well thank you!

Fritz:
Okay Bob, we're all behind you.  Billy, keep that show going!
It's the Number One show in America in talk shows.

Goodman:
Well, thank you very much Fritz.  He did explain to you why we
have flying saucers, right?

Fritz:
Well, I know why they are here.  The general public has to become
aware; they're just wakening up.  It's like a film being lifted
from their eyes.  I mean, they've been laughing for forty years!

Goodman:
Wait a minute Fritz.  You know why they're here?  Why are they
here, Fritz?

Fritz:
Well, first of all, it's a conditioning process.

Goodman:
Okay, you got it.

Fritz:
We are in a quarantine because we are so ignorant; our ignorance
keeps us from meeting them.  Big brother reaches out the hand and
says, "Come over, little brother, let's have the cosmic connection,"
but we have to become a world together -- earthlings.
We are about 170 nations -- 170 languages; we have to come together.
When we have a spokesman, then we will meet on equal ground.

Tim from Pasadena:
When you looked into the saucer, how does the hatch work?  How
does it seal up, and what are all of the mechanics involved?

Lazar:
The hatch -- or whatever it was -- was completely removed; there was
just an opening in the side of the craft.

Tim:
Did the opening have any kind of sealing around it or a lip?

Lazar:
I really don't remember.  'Cause I was so interested in looking
inside, I didn't really catch a strong glimpse of the sealing
mechanism or any other thing around it.

Tim:
When you were previously on Billy's show, you said you looked into
one, and it was all smooth like it had been a wax casting.

<Continued next message...>

--
Michael Corbin - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


~From: paranet!p0.f422.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG!Michael.Corbin
~Subject: KVEG/Lazar Transcript #2
~Date: 28 Dec 89 01:23:00 GMT

<...Continued from previous message>

Lazar:
Yeah, exactly.

Tim:
Now, was that the only one you looked into?

Lazar:
No, it was the only one I looked into.  The other ones I just saw
from a distance, so I don't know any detail about them.

Tim:
And the one you looked into, was that the "Sport Model"?

Lazar:
Yes, exactly.

Tim:
And that's the only one you saw fly as well?

Lazar:
Right.

Tim:
What was your work there?

Lazar:
Like I said before, it was essentially to back-engineer the
propulsion and power system.

Tim:
So you weren't really involved in the mechanics of the craft
itself?

Lazar:
No, not at all.

Tim:
But mostly just the Element 115 and all that kind of stuff you
were learning about?

Lazar:
Right.

Goodman:
What is gravity?

Lazar:
Gravity is a wave.  It's a force, essentially, just like
electromagnetic waves are a different type of force.  I really don't
know a good way to describe gravity.

Goodman:
Einstein and other scientists really don't have an answer for what
gravity is, do they, totally; they don't really understand it
totally, do they?

Lazar:
No, no, not at all.  In fact, I don't think we understand
ANYTHING about gravity.

Goodman:
Why don't we just float away ourselves?  What keeps us down
on the planet?

Lazar:
That is the attractive force of gravity.

Goodman:
Some people say it presses down, but it doesn't, does it?

Lazar:
No, it doesn't.  It's an attractive force.  It's like, on
an atomic scale, the strong and weak nuclear forces hold the
atoms individually together.

Goodman:
Is your actual title government scientist or physicist?

Lazar:
You could use either one.

Goodman:
You are no longer a government scientist or physicist, right?

Lazar:
Not employed by the government.

Goodman:
But you are continuing in the scientific field.  What do you do?

Lazar:
I design and build advanced radiation detection equipment,
mainly alpha radiation equipment for essentially use in
detecting plutonium for national laboratories.

Lee Samuels:
How long has that craft been on this earth?

Lazar:
I really don't know.  I don't even know how long it's
been down at S-4.

Samuels:
Do you know where it originally landed?

Lazar:
No, you got me on all that stuff.  They really never keep me
in as to --

Samuels:
It could have been here for years?

Lazar:
Yeah.  Or it could have been brought in in pieces from
somewhere else, too.

Samuels:
Did you see just one craft or a number of craft?

Lazar:
I saw a number of them.

Samuels:
Did the other workers talk about it, where it came from,
or more they towed in, or whatever?

Lazar:
I don't know.  There really wasn't that much conversation
between everyone.

Samuels:
Were you by yourself when you were investigating the craft?

Lazar:
Walking by myself.  There were security people around me,
but when I crawled underneath on the sub-floor to look at
the gravity amplifiers, I got away from them.  But there
was no one right next to me the whole time.

Samuels:
Any evidence of LIVE aliens held captive?

Lazar:
Nothing I could put my finger on.

Samuels:
Then you didn't get to see any at all then in that sector?

Lazar:
Nothing I could put my finger on.

Samuels:
Did the craft have sleeping quarters for aliens?  Is it like
a Star Trek craft?  What kind of craft is it?

<Continued next message...>

--
Michael Corbin - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


~From: paranet!p0.f422.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG!Michael.Corbin
~Subject: KVEG/Lazar Transcript #3
~Date: 28 Dec 89 01:26:00 GMT

<...Continued from previous message>

Lazar:
No, it's pretty vacant inside.  Granted, a couple of things
were removed; they were sawed off at the base.  I don't
know what they were; I just saw little stumps on the ground,
so I don't know what was removed.  But it doesn't look
like it had anything like sleeping quarters or anything
like that.

Samuels:
Any writing you could detect or any language on the walls?

Lazar:
No.

Samuels:
Any panels, like a dashboard on a car?

Lazar:
Yeah.  In fact, that was one of the things -- There was more
than one control panel set up, but it looks like one was
removed.

Samuels:
Were these craft all from the same source?  Were they all
identical?

Lazar:
No.  Each craft was completely different in physical
appearance.  I didn't get to look in depth at the other
craft, but I only fooled around with one.

Samuels:
I applaud your courage.

Caller (referring to a certain book):
Have you heard of him?

Lazar:
I think I thumbed through that book once.  I think John
Lear --

Caller:
What the heck is an energy grid on our planet?

Lazar:
I don't know.  I don't buy that theory or anything in
that book.  It's a grid outlined over the entire globe,
and at each intersection there's an energy vortex of
some kind.  I'd rather not comment since I don't buy it.

Caller:
On TV you mentioned something about a time warp and a
folding over.  What did you mean by that?

Lazar:
Right.  It's how gravity, whether produced artificially
or naturally, distorts time and space.

Caller:
I read about Nicola Tesla questioning Einstein's theory
of relativity.  He says that energy DOESN'T come from
matter.  Where does it come from if it doesn't come
from matter?

Lazar:
That's a strange question.  It can be EXTRACTED from
matter.  But it can be extracted by other means, too.
I really don't understand that [question].

Tom from Los Angeles:
How can UFOs be kept secret for 40 years?

Lazar:
I did pose that question to some people at S-4, and the
answer that I got was that it's the easiest thing TO keep
secret because of the subject matter.

Tom:
Is that because it's tied in with a lot of parapsychology-
psychic-type stuff -- National Enquirer?

Lazar:
Maybe so.  There is so much disinformation made so available
to the public via the tabloids and things like that that
any true information getting out is assumed to originate
from those sources.

Tom:
Carl Sagan is a "people" scientist; he's brought science
down to the general public.  What about getting him involved
in this somehow?

Lazar:
I imagine he's fairly open-minded.  I've never met him.

Tom:
He's one of the biggest UFO debunkers.

Lazar:
He's going to need his own proof, as everyone should require.
It's impossible to make an absolute believer out of someone
that hasn't had hands-on experience or has seen something for
themselves.  That's the way any scientist is going to look
at it.

Tom:
How far is Zeta Reticuli?

Lazar:
I think it's around 32 light years.

Tom:
Do these ships travel faster than light?

Lazar:
It's an irrelevant question because they get around it
because they're not in a linear mode of travel.  Since they're
distorting time and space, there's no true time reference.
And since velocity is distance over time, when you begin to
fool around with time, you really can't state a true velocity.

Tom:
Re the SETI program -- the search for radio signals --
couldn't some of these observatories or telescopes be aimed
at the places where aliens supposedly come from?

Lazar:
RADIO waves and frequencies along that band aren't utilized;
it's GRAVITY wave communication, and a radio-telescope isn't
going to pick up anything of that sort.

Goodman:
The way you got to see this UFO was not planned by anyone
wanting you to see it, right?  You were walking with security
and you went into a doorway.  How did you describe that before?

Lazar:
It may have been planned by them.  I had no advance warning of
it.  I had been brought in a separate door the whole time, and
one specific time I was just led into the area where I worked --
through the hangar doors, which I had never been in before --
walked directly by the craft, and began to slow down by it,
and they said, "Just keep walking; keep your eyes forward," and
it was just like that.

Nothing was said, and I just went and sat down in an empty room.

Goodman:
You went and sat down in an empty room after you saw it?

Lazar:
Yeah, waited for this guy that I worked with, Barry, and then
we went to work on some of the work we were assigned to.

Goodman:
What was some of the work that you actually did?  What did
you actually do at S-4?  When you had an assignment, what would
it have been, for example?

<Continued next message...>

--
Michael Corbin - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


~From: paranet!p0.f422.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG!Michael.Corbin
~Subject: KVEG/Lazar Transcript #4
~Date: 28 Dec 89 01:29:00 GMT

<...Continued from previous message>

Lazar:
Most of the time I worked there I was being briefed and being
brought up to date on what had been done before.  Most of
the hands-on bench work was with the anti-matter reactor
itself:  being shown how it operated, giving demonstrations,
and things of that sort.

Goodman:
There was practically no communication with your fellow workers?

Lazar:
Right.  They kept that to an absolute minimum. They were on the
buddy system:  you always worked with someone, and that's the
person you communicated with, and there was really no cross-
talk between groups.

Goodman:
When you went there for the initial interview, you said at
the time they actually had a gun at your head --

Lazar:
No, that was at the security briefing.

Goodman:
Security, wherever that may be --
The initial interview when you went to work at S-4 I'm talking
about, that's not when the gun was at your head?

Lazar:
No.

Goodman:
When you went there, what was your understanding about what
you were going to be doing?

Lazar:
Some high-technology work, and I assumed they were talking
about some sort of gravitational propulsion system.

Goodman:
Were you excited about that?

Lazar:
Oh yeah, very much so, because there was some talk about
that because it was something that I was interested in,
something they KNEW I was interested in, and that was the
hint that I got.

Goodman:
And did it come to fruition?  Did what you were told you were
going to do actually happen?

Lazar:
Yeah.

Goodman:
For what period of time?

[Goodman goes right into NEXT question.]
How long were you actually there before you let people know
what was going on up there?  How many months or days or whatever?

Lazar:
Probably a couple of months.

Goodman:
Every time you went there you literally had to fly up, land at
Groom Lake, take a bus that was blacked out at the windows --

Lazar:
Right.

Goodman:
-- and no communication on the bus.  What were you thinking as
a young man.  You're a very young man; let's face it.

Lazar:
I'm not that young.

Goodman:
Well, you're a very young man; I think you are.  Anyway, what
were you thinking?  Were you just saying, well this just goes
with the territory and I'm just going to go along with this?

Lazar:
Oh yeah, you bet!  I would have done that and much more just
to be involved with the project.

Goodman:
Ah!  The excitement was just being there, being a part of
what was going on behind the scenes.  The secret part about it?

Lazar:
Oh sure.  I would have taken a LOT more crap than they had
dealt out.

Goodman:
Can you picture it?  He's in his thirties, sitting on a bus,
and accepting the fact, Okay, I'm going to work this morning,
not talking to his compadres on the bus, is looking straight
ahead, blackened-out windows, not driving on asphalt, all dirt
roads. . . Didn't you ask yourself why they didn't do anything
about the dirt roads?

Lazar:
It was a good dirt road.  A lot of the roads around there are
dirt, in fact almost all are.

Mark in Los Angeles:
Previously, you described the central column of the propulsion
device as being a wave guide.  There was a disk toward the
bottom of this thing down near the anti-matter generator that
spins.  What is that disk made of --

Lazar:
There's no spinning disk.

Mark:
What is the disk made of?  Is it a capacitor?

Lazar:
A disk?  The wave guide extends down, and it widens out and
sits on the curved portion of the reactor.  The bottom of the
reactor is a plate, but nothing rotates or moves; it's all
connected together.

Mark:
Is that plate a capacitor?

Lazar:
No.

Mark:
Well, what is it made of?

Lazar:
Metal.  That's the only way I can describe it; I don't know
what kind; it's [electric-] --

Mark:
Did anyone determine the kind of metal it was?

Lazar:
Not to my knowledge.

<Continued next message...>

--
Michael Corbin - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



********To have your comments in the next issue, send electronic mail to********
                      'infopara' at the following address:

UUCP            {ncar,isis,boulder}!scicom!infopara
DOMAIN          [e-mail]
ADMIN Address   [e-mail]
                {ncar,isis,boulder}!scicom!infopara-request

******************The**End**of**Info-ParaNet**Newsletter************************




                      Info-ParaNet Newsletters, Number 113

                          Thursday, December 28th 1989

Today's Topics:

                            KVEG/Lazar Transcript #5
                            KVEG/Lazar Transcript #6
                            KVEG/Lazar Transcript #7
                            KVEG/Lazar Transcript #8
                            KVEG/Lazar Transcript #9
                            KVEG/Lazar Transcript #10
                            KVEG/Lazar Transcript #11

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

~From: paranet!p0.f422.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG!Michael.Corbin
~Subject: KVEG/Lazar Transcript #5
~Date: 28 Dec 89 01:32:00 GMT

<...Continued from previous message>

Mark:
I understand that part of the propulsion system involves a
very large capacitor -- which is usually the entire lower
surface of the disk -- that can make use of something along the
lines of the [Bifield] Brown Effect.  Do you know what
the components of the dielectric material in that capacitor
are?

Lazar:
Well, if the bottom of the disk is one plate of the
capacitor, then the dielectric material would be the air --
if you're going to look at the earth as another plate of
the capacitor.  But as far as the capacitor being integral
to the actual craft itself, no, I found no evidence of
that.

Mark:
I understand there's an antenna section in this device;  what
is the resonant frequency that that operates at?

Lazar:
The resonant frequency of the gravity wave I do know, but
I don't know it off hand; I just can't remember it.

Mark:
Can you give me a ballpark, like 2,000 kilohertz?

Lazar:
I really don't remember.  It's a really odd frequency.

Mark:
Is it measured in kilohertz or gigahertz or megahertz?

Lazar:
I really don't remember.

Mark:
When you first started to go public and were meeting with
people at John Lear's house, I understand that there were
a number of witnesses at those first meetings.  One of them
claims that you did say that you had seen an extraterrestrial
while working inside one of those saucers, trying to back-
engineer the propulsion system, and that you had been
looking out through a doorway or through a porthole in the
side of the device and that you had actually seen an
extraterrestrial walking around on the outside of one of
those devices.

Lazar:
Devices meaning disks?

Mark:
Yes.

Lazar:
No.

Mark:
So you're saying you've never seen an extraterrestrial at
S-4.

Lazar:
I really don't want to get into that.

Mark:
The reason I ask is because someone else is claiming that
you have.

Lazar:
Well, stated the way you did, no I didn't.  And I never did
look and see an extraterrestrial.  As the story goes, and
the reason I never bring it up, is because I thought I saw
something once -- walking at a glance -- and that's all there
is to it.  And I won't stand on that fact because it was
just a fleeting glimpse; when I came back, whatever was
there was gone; it could have been a million things.

Mark:
I have a contact that claims that you were responsible
for determining that Element 115 was not in fact necessary
to operate an anti-gravity propulsion device in the earth's
magnetic field.  Is that true?

Lazar:
No, it's the exact opposite.

Caller:
Why are you going public?  There's obviously a lot of other
staff on the project that senses a great degree of loyalty.

Lazar:
The straw that broke the camel's back was, after I left
the program I became concerned about what happens now.  I
made a routine request for my birth certificate, which I
needed just for I.D. purposes, and I was told that it
doesn't exist, I wasn't even born at that hospital.  I sat
on that for about a week and just wondered, and then I
began to inquire at previous jobs and also at other schools,
and that information was also gone.  And I got the idea that
soon someone was going to disappear, so that's when I contacted
the TV station and essentially let everything out.

Caller:
But you left the program under very amicable circumstances?

Lazar:
No, that's a long, involved story that I really don't want
to get into.

Caller:
Are you afraid of any repercussions from the govenment?

Lazar:
Oh yeah, I was really concerned at one time.

Caller:
Less so now?

Lazar:
Yeah, less so now, but you still keep in the back of your
mind . . .

Caller:
If anything would happen to you now, that would cause such an
uproar in itself, the last thing they would do would be to go
anywhere near you.

Lazar:
Exactly.  As someone said on the media somewhere, if there're
following me now, it's to make sure nothing happens to me.

Caller:
Did you witness any working models of the vehicle that were
operational?

<Continued next message...>

--
Michael Corbin - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


~From: paranet!p0.f422.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG!Michael.Corbin
~Subject: KVEG/Lazar Transcript #6
~Date: 28 Dec 89 01:36:00 GMT

<...Continued from previous message>

Lazar:
I only saw one operate.  I saw one at close range while I
was at the area and then at extreme distance -- about 15
miles, when I brought some friends up to look at it.

Caller:
Using the technology that's being used, the craft are very
agile, aren't they?

Lazar:
Oh yes, very, in one specific mode of travel.

Caller:
In one direction at a time?

Lazar:
No.  There's two modes of travel.  There's a low-speed mode
and a high-speed mode.  I don't remember what they called them;
they had a specific name for them.

Caller:
What was the size of the staff working on the project?

Lazar:
22 people that I knew of, in the area that I worked in.  How
extensive the rest of the facility was, I don't know.

Caller:
I understand you were frustrated at the size of the staff.
You thought it should have been larger?

Lazar:
Oh yeah!  Much!

Caller:
More could have been learned about the program more
quickly?

Lazar:
Sure!  I mean, 22 people, c'mon!

Caller:
Do you think we understand enough about the alien propulsion
technology to build our own vehicles, using this technology --
or are we even close?  Do we know what's going on?

Lazar:
Yeah, we know what's going on, but the problem is substituting
earthly materials, and there's no easy way getting around that.

Caller:
How is Element 115 involved in the construction of the vehicles?

Lazar:
Everything seems to come down to 115.  It's a super-heavy
element.  It seems that as you get into the heavier elements --
and I'm sure this property extends into as-yet-undiscovered
elements in excess of atomic number 115 -- that the ATOMIC
gravity wave inside the atoms holding things together begins
to extend outside of the atomic structure itself, and it's
this wave that can be tapped off in quantity -- small quantity,
actually.  This wave can be amplified, contained, and used
for a useful purpose.

Goodman:
Are your radiation detectors for nuclear power plants?

Lazar:
Not nuclear power plants; weapon . . .where they use
plutonium.

Goodman:
Like the latest flight above us now?

Lazar:
The Galileo?

Goodman:
Yeah.

Lazar:
Yeah.

Goodman:
Are you involved with that, Mr. Lazar?

Lazar:
Not directly.  Someone may have used our probes to
detect --

Number 37:
Are they flying these vehicles within our city areas at any
time?

Lazar:
I really don't know.  I was only witness to a couple tests.
I don't know how far they go.  I think they're very careful
with them.  I personally don't think they're whipping them
around the solar system because I don't know how profficient
they are at operating them.

Number 37:
Do you read any UFO literature in book form?

Lazar:
Nothing in book form.  I occasionally get handed little tidbits
here and there and glance at them, but no, I don't delve
into reading.

Number 37:
You mentioned some stuff on the Billy Meiers case.  Have
you read any of that information because you had mentioned
that you had seen some pictures?

Lazar:
Yeah, I looked at the, what caught my eye was certainly
the -- whatever that book's called -- Contact From the Plaeides
or something -- but it's essentially a picture book; there's
really no text in it.  One of the craft in there looks strikingly
similar to the one I call the Sport Model.

Number 37:
What did you think of that similarity?  Did that puzzle you?

Lazar:
Yeah, because originally I had kind of discounted the Billy
Meiers stuff, but that craft looks AMAZINGLY like the one that
I worked on.  And another thing, somewhere in that book they
had a picture of a grassy field with three round indents in
the ground.  Now that would coincide with the three gravity
amplifiers in the bottom of the craft and the imprint that
they do make, so that kind of makes me believe that that
really did occur.

Number 37:
You said you didn't necessarily share the same views of
Bill Cooper and John Lear as far as the big picture
was concerned?

Lazar:
I'm not exactly sure what each individual story is.
John Lear has a specific story; Bill Cooper has a specific
story.  I do agree with both of them in the fact that,
yeah, there's alien craft here and so on and so forth.
John Lear thinks there're here to use us for food.  I
don't exactly remember Bill Cooper's story.  But the little
intricate parts here and there -- I just haven't seen any
evidence MYSELF of it.  I don't know what these gentlemen
have found out on their own.

Caller 37:
>From everything you know about it, do you believe there is
a possibility there are benevolent creatures in the universe?

Lazar:
Oh sure.

Goodman:
How would you describe this picture?

Lazar:
It's an interesting picture.  It looks like a formation of
four and a formation of two flying saucers.

Goodman:
That picture came in a box delivered to the Vagabond Inn.
No name, no nothing.  Just a note:

"This picture was taken from the 29-1/2-mile marker on the
day that I had the best time of my life, thanks to you,
Billy Goodman Happening."

That's all.

Lazar:
There's even a distortion in the cloud behind a couple of
them; that's really interesting.

Goodman:
That is right up there where people have gone.  Bob mentioned
the same thing that I said when I saw that:  "Boy, that's
a DAYTIME shot."

Look at the smile on Bob Lazar's face!

Lazar:
It would be interesting to magnify it to some degree.
Very interesting.  They're glowing the color that the
crafts glow.

Goodman:
I don't know who you are out there, but I thank you very,
very, very much, because that is absolute, positive proof
that they are up there in the sky having a good time.

Do you think that they're flown by alien beings, or are
WE -- the military -- doing it?

<Continued next message...>

--
Michael Corbin - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


~From: paranet!p0.f422.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG!Michael.Corbin
~Subject: KVEG/Lazar Transcript #7
~Date: 28 Dec 89 01:40:00 GMT

<...Continued from previous message>

Lazar:
I think that the ones that we're testing . . . the one
that I was involved in I think is being flown by the
military.  Whatever else is going on I don't know.

Was that picture taken over Area 51?

Goodman:
That's right.  And it looks like it.  Recognize the peak?

Lazar:
Yeah.  Of course, that's a daytime photograph.  And I was
told that all the testing was done at night.  And, I mean,
that's interesting.

Goodman:
You described, when you went inside one of these little
puppies, that there were very, very small seats, almost like
a kindergarten type.

Lazar:
Right.  Exactly.

Goodman:
So we have to have some small guys doing it -- jockeys
or something?

Lazar:
No,no.  You could squeeze into it.

Paul:
Do these craft appear to be shuttle craft, not the main
craft?

Lazar:
I don't know how you'd differentiate between the two?

Paul:
In most instances, people speak of them joining up with
another craft and then going out of the atmosphere.  Could
the models you've seen be classed as shuttle craft in
that respect?

Lazar:
I really don't know.

Paul:
They wouldn't carry a big fleet of people?

Lazar:
No, definitely not.  They are small, I'm guessing right in
the mid-30-, 40-foot range, somewhere in there.  And as far
as carrying a lot of cargo or beings or whatever, no, there's
not a whole lot of room there.  So possibly there is a larger
craft that they join with, but I didn't see any.

Paul:
Are there more engines than there are craft at S-4?

Lazar:
That's a good question.  There's nine craft.  I really don't
know.

Paul:
It would be something to explain how in the hell we got more
engines than we do craft.  There's got to be some kind of an
agreement or somebody helping us.

Lazar:
Right.  There's certainly more fuel than there needs to be.

Paul:
Since they have released you and taken away your scientific
livelihood, I hope you go on the national circuit, 60 Minutes,
the Carson show, everything you can get on, and milk it for
every dime you can get.

Lazar:
[laughs]

Paul:
You have a right to do that since they interrupted your career.
But the important thing is to get this stuff into the hands of
the scientific community, that can do some good with it.

They've been toying with it for years and nothing's come out of
it.  We can't get anywhere.  We've got to get it out of the
hands of these power-mongers.

Lazar:
I agree one hundred percent.

Paul:
I think that's why you took people up there in the first
place. You were tired of their games.

Wesley Crumb, Charleston, Illinois:
It's a great privilege to get a chance to speak with you.
I greatly admire your courage in coming forward.  I saw a
copy of the KLAS program you did.  When I first heard about
you I ran up about a $300 phone bill calling New York and
Chicago, and everywhere.  I got a rejection today from the
Donahue show that they don't want to do a program about you.

Did you go inside all nine spacecraft?

Lazar:
No, no, just one.

Crumb:
When you were inside the craft, did you see any indication
that either through markings on the controls or otherwise
that these ships were from a different place?  Was there
any writing on any controls or anything?

Lazar:
No, not on controls and things like that.  But I did see
some evidence of writing.

Crumb:
When you saw the slight demonstration that was performed for
you, were you the only person that was there that saw this
craft operate?

Lazar:
No, there were several people.  I was standing right next to
the person who was in radio contact with the craft.

Crumb:
How long did this demonstration last?

Lazar:
It was a short duration.  It lifted off the ground, slid
over to the left, then back to the right, and set back
down.  It was a very short duration.

Crumb:
But you never saw who was at the controls?

Lazar:
No, because when I was brought in, the craft was in the
hangar.  When I came out, it was already out of the hangar
and sitting on -- well, sitting out away from the hangar
some distance.  So I don't know how it was brought out, who
brought it out, who got in it.  I can only guess.

Crumb:
Is the entire thing underground -- all nine different
hangars?

Lazar:
No, it's not underground; it's just butt up against the
side of a little mountain, a little hill kind of, but it's
kind of inside the mountain.

Crumb:
Do you feel that the billions of dollars that are being
spent on the space program by the administration is a waste
of money, as we already have these ships in our posssession?

Lazar:
No, because look at all the technology that we did get out
of the space program.

Crumb:
Was it ever disclosed to you that these craft were on loan
to us.  Is there a chance of them being repossessed at any
time?

<Continued next message...>

--
Michael Corbin - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


~From: paranet!p0.f422.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG!Michael.Corbin
~Subject: KVEG/Lazar Transcript #8
~Date: 28 Dec 89 01:43:00 GMT

<...Continued from previous message>

Lazar:
No, none of that was ever disclosed to me -- anything about
the origin.

Crumb:
I heard a rumor earlier this evening that your van was shot
at recently.  Is there any truth to that?

Lazar:
I don't have a van.  I was shot at in my car.

Crumb:
It got passed on to me from the Video Clearinghouse in
Yucaipa, and we've been keeping pretty close touch ever
since this news broke.

I did get a call yesterday from the National Enquirer.  They
might follow up and try and do something for you, Bob.
The Enquirer is not exactly the best way you want to go,
but at least it does have some national exposure.

Burt in Burbank:
You said there's more fuel than necessary at the Test
Site?

Lazar:
Yeah.  I don't know exactly where it is, but there's
500 pounds.

Burt:
500 pounds of Element 115?

Lazar:
Yeah, and it takes 223 grams per craft, so there's
definitely an abundance of fuel out there.

Burt:
Could you quickly describe the underside of these
ships?

Lazar:
No, because I only saw from a SIDE view of only
one craft.  The other ones were always sitting on the
ground; I never saw it.  But the underside is
essentially flat.  Now, I never got directly under it
to look.  There might be some features down there, but
I really don't know.

Burt:
The reason I ask is because you were talking about the
three distortions that can come down from the gravity
engines to distort the graph.

Are you aware of any time distortion within the saucer
itself while they are running?

Lazar:
Yeah, there has to be.

Burt:
What about SIZE distortion within the ship?
I've heard reports that people who have been in
these that the inside seems much larger than the
outside would indicate.

Lazar:
I have heard that too, but I haven't really seen
any evidence of that.

Burt:
You were talking about the low- and high-speed modes
and the control factors in there.  Can you describe
those modes and what the ship looks like each time
it is going through those modes?

Lazar:
The low-speed mode -- and I REALLY wish I could remember
what they call these, but I can't, as I can't remember
the frequency of the wave --

The low-speed mode:  The craft is very vulnerable; it bobs
around.  And it's sitting on a weak gravitational field,
sitting on three gravity waves.  And it just bounces
around.  And it can focus the waves behind it and keep
falling forward and hobble around at low speed.

The second mode:  They increase the amplitude of the
field, and the craft begins to lift, and it performs a
ROLL maneuver:  it begins to turn, roll, begins to turn
over.  As it begins to leave the earth's gravitational
field, they point the bottom of the craft at the
DESTINATION.  This is the second mode of travel, where
they converge the three gravity amplifiers -- FOCUS
them -- on a point that they want to go to.  Then they
bring them up to full power, and this is where the
tremendous time-space distortion takes place, and that
whips them right to that point.

Burt:
Did you actually bench-test a unit away from the
craft itself?

Lazar:
The reactor, yeah.

Burt:
About how large is this, and could you describe it?

Lazar:
The device itself is probably a plate about 18 inches
square; I said diameter before but it is square.  There's
a half-sphere on top where the gravity wave is tapped off
of, but that's about the size of it.

Amy:
Are there subjects you won't talk about regarding what
was going on at Groom Lake at the project?

Lazar:
No, I don't think so.

Amy:
Do you have future plans for more publicity?

Lazar:
There are several networks that are interested.

Amy:
60 Minutes?

Lazar:
That's been mentioned, but I haven't heard anything
officially.

Amy:
Would you do it?

<Continued next message...>

--
Michael Corbin - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


~From: paranet!p0.f422.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG!Michael.Corbin
~Subject: KVEG/Lazar Transcript #9
~Date: 28 Dec 89 01:46:00 GMT

<...Continued from previous message>

Lazar:
Yeah, I'd do a major network thing, sure.

Amy:
Are you familiar with the movie Hangar 18?

Lazar:
Yeah, I think I saw that when it first came out.

Amy:
Do you remember any parallels to what you know now?

Lazar:
I don't remember enough about the movie.

Amy:
The KLAS-TV program showed a Los Alamos newspaper
article about you during the time that you were
at Los Alamos.  What paper was that?  When was it
written?

Lazar:
The Monitor, July 1982, or something like that.
I think I still have a copy at home.

Amy:
Did the alien craft create harmful radioactivity
in the area?

Lazar:
No.

Amy:
The woman talked about on the show a few days ago --
the child and the two women [Cash/Landrum case?] -- and
they now have cancer.  How did that occur?

Lazar:
I've heard of that before, and that sounds like a
really poor attempt at us producing a craft -- a
nuclear-powered craft, really dirty, spewing nuclear
material all over the place.  It sounds something
that we would make.  It really rings human.

Amy:
Do the aliens appear to be the same physical makeup?
>From your research on the craft itself, can you tell
if they are similar to us -- by the way it was
designed?

Lazar:
Certainly smaller.

Amy:
But there's nothing other than that?

Lazar:
Not from the crafts.  I read some material pertaining
to what they call the typical grey.  I believe
them to be that.

Goodman:
It was interesting when you asked for your birth
certificate, and you could not locate it.  And
they told you that literally you did not exist?
They TOLD you this in so many words?

Lazar:
They said we just have no records here.

Goodman:
And YOU felt that you didn't exist?

Lazar:
I felt that that's what they were trying to
make happen.

Goodman:
Are you familiar with that type of thing
being done?

Lazar:
No, I never heard of it before.  I guess
other people have.

Goodman:
Did you ever get your birth certificate?

Lazar:
Nope.

Goodman:
What about diplomas and things of that nature?
Was there any record of any colleges you have
attended?

Lazar:
George Knapp tracked down one, and they still
had a record there.

Goodman:
All the rest are gone?

Lazar:
Yeah.

Goodman:
Have you called the colleges yourself and asked
for copies?

Lazar:
Yeah.  Yeah.  Just like I went and called Los
Alamos, too, and they said, no, you never worked
here, and you know, I've been there for years.  You
can present them with the information, look, here's
my name in the [Los Alamos] phone book, here are the
people that I've worked with, here is the guy that
I worked for, this is the project I worked on, and
all they say is no.  I mean it's ridiculous.

Goodman:
And when you're talking to these people, I'm sure
there are some that probably are just working there;
they don't know any different.  They are just checking
the records and saying we don't have anything.

Lazar:
Right. You can hear them when you call up.  They
are checking on the computer.  They will type in
your name and it won't come up.  So that's
probably all they do know.

Goodman:
People should realize this -- nowadays especially --
you could be pulled out -- all of us could -- and
anything we've ever done.  If someone pulls your
name out of a computer where you've worked before
or you've had some past, you don't exist because
the new person or a personnel director going in and
checking -- you're not there.  You have no record
of that individual.

Lazar:
Right.  It depends on the level that you look into
it, too.  Like I said, George Knapp went out to
Los Alamos, and that's where he got the telephone
directory and spoke to someone I worked with out
there, and so on.

Goodman:
This mode of travel involved in moving these
UFOs around:  Can you see that being a mode of
travel for us in the future.  You said it only
took grams of fuel.  That sounds pretty good
to me as far as being efficient.  Do you think that
it's possible that we could be traveling like that
in the future?

<Continued next message...>

--
Michael Corbin - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


~From: paranet!p0.f422.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG!Michael.Corbin
~Subject: KVEG/Lazar Transcript #10
~Date: 28 Dec 89 01:49:00 GMT

<...Continued from previous message>

Lazar:
Well, obviously, THEY do, so I imagine it's possible
in the future.

Goodman:
I'm talking about our automobiles.  And do you have to
be off the ground in order to travel like this?

Lazar:
Yeah, I think you do.  It's not a very good mode of
slow-speed travel.

Goodman:
Something else we talked about off the air.  We might
as well tell the people about it.  Some strange things
are going on in your life.  You mentioned about car doors
being opened.  Describe what happened the other night
when you and your . . . Shelley left the house and you
came back and the doors were wide open.  What do you
think about all this?

Lazar:
It's crazy!  A friend of mine, Shelley, was over, and
we went out to a bar to have a, a, well, a buffet.  We
went out, locked the door, checked everything, and we
came back several hours later, and all the doors were open.
And nothing was disturbed in the house; nothing was
taken.  In her car that was left in the driveway, the
seats were moved all the way back like someone big sat
in them.

I've gone with other friends to a health club that I
go to.  We lock the doors and check them; in fact, I
usually keep a gun in the car and put my wallet on the
dash.  We've come out and the doors have been not just
unlocked but actually open -- not even the wallet taken
or the gun.  Certainly kids would have done THAT.  It's
just like someone wants me to know that they're still
there.

Goodman:
The last time you were on the Happening, you revealed
the gentleman's name --

Lazar:
Dennis Mariano

Goodman:
-- saying he was threatening you and was the biggest
problem in your life.  Have you had any problems with him since
then?

Lazar:
No, not recently, no.

Goodman:
How would the anti-matter reactor act in a car?

Lazar:
I don't know if I'd use that in a car.  But if you wanted
to, you could use it as a tremendous electrical power.

Goodman:
Which goes back to the beginning of time:  We were going
to have electric cars and were convinced we shouldn't have
electric cars because we were told we would have to plug
them in along the way.

It wouldn't be necessary -- as they said years ago -- to
plug in along the way to re-charge the batteries if we had
something inside to generate --

Lazar:
Right.  Along the same lines, you could make a NUCLEAR-powered
car, too, running off plutonium.

Goodman:
If we wanted to get involved with this anti-matter-reactor-type
or mode of travel, we'd have to have Element 115 --

Lazar:
Right.

Goodman:
-- which you had in your possession at one time.

Lazar:
Yeah, that's one of the things I got.  And that was my
ace-in-the-hole.

Goodman:
And they got it off you.

Lazar:
Yeah.  We did get it. . . For people that saw the KLAS
tape, where George Knapp points and says, "It's stored in
containers similar to this one," well, that WAS one.  And
that's why we put it on there.  It was kind of a jab at
them to say we got it.  That was the real ace-in-the-hole
because if everyone came out and jumped on it and said
this is all garbage and everything, you know, just to pop
that out and say, go check this!

Goodman:
Listen guys out there at Area S-4:  I know you're listening
'cause we heard this recently.  Why don't you get some of
that somehow to Bob.

Why would that be your ace-in-the-hole?

Lazar:
Because anyone can verify that it's an element that
doesn't exist.

Goodman:
Boy, that would be wonderful if we could just get that.
Any of you Mercury Workers up there that want to get
involved, and say that you do want to get involved, that
might be a great way to help Bob's cause out and to prove
his story, behind the story.

Bill from Las Vegas:
Someone previously called in and said that some of the
Mercury Workers had decided to get behind Lazar.  Has Bob
Lazar ever heard anything in relation to that?  Have any
of the Mercury Workers contacted him, and do any of them
intend to go public as you have done?

Lazar:
I don't know what the situation is with those guys, if
they're for real or not.  I've got messages through people
that someone called once and said there were three of them
and two of them were captured down at S-4 being tortured.
And there was another guy out here.  And so I really don't
know what the story is with those guys -- if they're for
real or not.

Bill:
Have you had any contact from other scientists that you
had worked with or any other scientists either at S-4
or any other scientists that don't work there?

Lazar:
Scientists that DON'T work there, yeah, that I worked with
at Los Alamos, sure.  But none at S-4, no.

<Continued next message...>

--
Michael Corbin - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


~From: paranet!p0.f422.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG!Michael.Corbin
~Subject: KVEG/Lazar Transcript #11
~Date: 28 Dec 89 01:53:00 GMT

<...Continued from previous message>

Bill:
Since you've gone public with this, you've had contact with
them calling you and wanting to know what's going on,
etcetera?

Lazar:
Oh yeah.  There were a couple that I gave information to
as we were going along.  And they knew what was going on
already -- through me.

Bill:
If you had other people to back you up and support you, it
might lend more credibility to what you're saying.

Lazar:
That was part of the idea of getting it on the news, and
I thought hopefully I would shake the tree and have these
other guys come forward and all be able to corroborate the
story and also have 115 under my belt, but that whole plan
backfired.

Bill:
This is for them if they're listening:  The rest of us
simply just don't have the guts to do anything,
apparently.

Lazar:
I wish they did.

Bill:
Anything in the works with regard to any national television
coverage or news media coverage of any sort?

Lazar:
There's been lots of talk but nothing definite.  There's no
date set for anything, but there's been a tremendous amount
of interest, national and international.

Bill:
I heard talk that there's a BIG underground base up there,
too.  Did you know anything about that?

Lazar:
I've heard that story, but I have no first-hand knowledge of
it.  I haven't been in any tunnels or any underground stuff.

Bill:
If these aliens that have these UFOs are obviously thousands
of years advanced in technology, it seems, how in the world
would it seem that the Government would come in possession
of these UFOs, if in fact the aliens didn't actually want
them to have them?

Lazar:
I don't know.  They look in very good condition.  It doesn't
look like they were crashed, that they were retrieved somewhere.
It really looks like they were given.  So I don't know; that
might be the case.

Goodman:
Have you ever given thought to the fact that maybe they were
invited here and they actually landed here and that's why
they were here?

Lazar:
Yeah, it's possible.

Goodman:
They could have come right to this area.

Jim from Las Vegas:
On TV, you spoke of observing a demonstration of this
anti-matter gravity wave controller device.  And you
made a mock-up copy?

Lazar:
A friend made one, yeah.

Jim:
I heard you speak of bouncing golf balls off of this
anti-gravity field?

Lazar:
Yeah.

Jim:
And also about the candle, the wax, and the flame
stood still?

Lazar:
Right.

Jim:
And then the hole that you saw appear --

Lazar:
It wasn't a hole; it was a little disk.

Jim:
Under what conditions did you see this demonstrated.
Elaborate on this.  And how large was the force field?

Lazar:
The force field where the candle was?

Jim:
The force field created by the anti-matter device.

Lazar:
It was about a 20-inch radius from the surface of the sphere.

Jim:
Where was this area, just above the device?

Lazar:
Yeah, surrounding the sphere.

Jim:
Did the sphere surround the device?

Lazar:
No, the sphere sits in the center of the device.
It's a half-sphere sitting on a plate, and a field
surrounds the half-sphere.

Jim:
And you just place a candle in there?

Lazar:
No, no, no.  That was a separate demonstration.  I'm
just telling you where the field EXTENDS from.

Jim:
Oh, that's what I'm curious about.

Lazar:
No, they tap the field off using a wave guide, off of
the sphere.  And this is a completely different setup, where
they had a mockup small gravity amplifier, and there were
three focused into a point, and that area of focus was
probably nine or ten inches in diameter.

Jim:
They displaced this area or moved this area?

Lazar:
No, it wasn't displaced; it's just where the field was
generated.

Jim:
And in there you put the candle?

Lazar:
Right.

Jim:
And that thing can actually bounce golf balls of of it?

Lazar:
No, no.  The golf ball thing, again, had nothing to do with that
setup.  The golf ball thing had something to do with just when
the reactor was energized, before the wave guide was put on or
anything.  We were just pushing on the field; it was being
demonstrated to me; and we just bounced a golf ball off the top.

<Continued next message...>

--
Michael Corbin - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



********To have your comments in the next issue, send electronic mail to********
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******************The**End**of**Info-ParaNet**Newsletter************************

$ (



                      Info-ParaNet Newsletters, Number 114

                          Thursday, December 28th 1989

Today's Topics:

                            KVEG/Lazar Transcript #12
                            KVEG/Lazar Transcript #13
                            KVEG/Lazar Transcript #14
                            KVEG/Lazar Transcript #15
                            KVEG/Lazar Transcript #16
                            KVEG/Lazar Transcript #17
                     KVEG/Lazar Transcript #18 (Conclusion)
                        Re: Lazar And His Amazing Saucers
                                    Elders??

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

~From: paranet!p0.f422.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG!Michael.Corbin
~Subject: KVEG/Lazar Transcript #12
~Date: 28 Dec 89 01:56:00 GMT

<...Continued from previous message>

Jim:
And the candle:  Does it melt and the flame stand still in
this DISK that you're talking about?

Lazar:
Well, in the AREA, yeah.

Jim:
You don't have to put it in the center?

Lazar:
Right.

Jim:
Just anywhere in the area?

Lazar:
Well, the actual flame of the candle WAS in the area --
in the center of the disk.

Jim:
And you saw this happen?

Lazar:
Yeah.

Goodman:
You don't show much emotion.

Lazar:
Maybe that's my nature, but that's what happens after ten
o'clock if I'm sitting in one place.

Goodman:
I'm not being derogatory about it.  I'm just saying it
seems like there's no emotion.  Some of this stuff that
you're talking about just gives me chills!

We get mail from people at Jet Propulsion Laboratory and
McDonnell Douglas.  Would you like to work for people
like that?

Lazar:
I don't know.  I'm kind of used to working for myself.  I
don't know about going to work for . . . especially anything
attached to the Government again, [look with] distrust . . .

Goodman:
Off the air, I asked what would you like to see for the future
and what could you do for humanity?  He said we could talk about
that, but the main concern right now is how he can support
himself, and I didn't realize you were having difficulty as far
as that.

Lazar:
Oh no, not really difficulty, but it's something always
to look for.

Goodman:
How could anyone in our listening audience assist you?

Lazar:
Oh, they really can't.  There's several things I did
before I began to get into the program up there.  I used
to race my jet car.  I'll probably start that up again
this season and expand my scientific business, United Nuclear.
I'll probably increase that into a sales field and things
like that.

Goodman:
Okay, I just thought we could bring that up just in
case there was someone out there that could use your
services.  What service do you offer, if someone out
there could use it?

Lazar:
Someone would have to be fooling around with plutonium,
and there aren't many people that do that.

Goodman:
Don't bet on that.  You never know.

Caller:
Was the craft you worked on one that WE made or was it
one that was brought here by the aliens from another
planet?

Lazar:
This is a craft of alien origin.

Caller:
That was brought here BY them from another planet?

Lazar:
Yeah.

Caller:
Do we know anything about their way of life?  Do they
speak the same language or what?

Lazar:
I really don't know.  I really know very little about
that.  I'd LIKE to know a lot about that.  You assume
that they mass-produce the craft, so there must be
some sort of factory somewhere.  That means there must
be workers in the factory.  Do they have a social life?
I mean, the questions are endless.  I'd like to know
myself.

Caller:
And if they are here on this planet, WHERE are they?

Lazar:
That's another good question.  You got me.  I really
don't know.

Caller:
If one walked up to my door, what am I supposed to do?

Lazar:
I don't know.  I guess you'll find out really quick if
they're benevolent or not.  But as far as what to
do, who knows?

Goodman:
Say you're up in Kansas out in a farmland and you see
this person that looks really far-out, do you think
they're just going to wait for them to come to the
door or do you think they're going to shoot and ask
questions later?

Lazar:
Probably shoot and ask questions later --

Goodman:
That's the problem.  Wouldn't that cause all kinds
of consternation amongst these people if they find
out one of their people were --

Lazar:
Well, you have all the stories of the abductee
reports, about medical examinations; I mean they go
through a lot of trauma and stuff like that.  When it
came right down to it, if I was confronted by a bunch
of them -- my car stopped or something to that effect,
a craft obviously in sight -- yeah, I'd take on
a hostile attitude really quickly.

Goodman:
Unless you were told differently --

Lazar:
Right.

Goodman:
-- by the Government:  these people don't mean to harm
you; they're going to be landing in your cities, whatever;
just [kinda act friendly.]

<Continued next message...>

--
Michael Corbin - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


~From: paranet!p0.f422.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG!Michael.Corbin
~Subject: KVEG/Lazar Transcript #13
~Date: 28 Dec 89 02:00:00 GMT

<...Continued from previous message>

Caller:
Do you think in the future our President will tell us
on national television that the UFOs are here, that he
will make it known to us?

Lazar:
I doubt it.

Caller:
You don't think he ever will?

Lazar:
No, I don't think he could muster up enough to do that.

Caller:
One of the presidents in the past was supposed to say
that if he was elected he was going to tell us all about
it, but he didn't.

Lazar:
Carter.  That tells you something right there, because
he never got in and denied it.  He just got in and didn't
say anything.

New caller:
Did you have a badge when you went to work?

Lazar:
Sure did.

Caller:
Did it have any designation on it?

Lazar:
As far as what?

Caller:
What did it say?

Lazar:
It's a white badge.  It has two -- a light blue and a
dark blue -- diagonal stripes through it.  On the top
it says MAJ-12.  The clearance level is called
MAJESTIC; I don't know if that was, like I said before
I don't know if that means anything as far as the
MAJESTIC-12 documents go, or if they just called that
clearance that as a nostalgia type of thing.  My picture
was on it -- what else was on it . . .

Caller:
Did it have both MAJ and MAJESTIC -- both words?

Lazar:
The only place I ever saw MAJESTIC was on Dennis's
[Mariano] badge, who was my supervisor, and his badge
looks slightly different.  I don't know if it was an
older kind or what.

Caller:
You mentioned you were doing back-engineering, but
specifically, what was the breakdown of your duties,
for example, for one day, with respect to, say, what
your co-workers were doing?  What was the breakdown,
the division of tasks?

Lazar:
I have no knowledge of what the other people were doing.

Caller:
But you were not working simply by yourself.

Lazar:
No, just with one person.

Caller:
And what was the difference between what you did and
what he did?

Lazar:
Well, we were basically in the training phase.  He was
getting me up to date on everything, so we never split
off, and you know, he went and did his thing, and I --

Caller:
Did you ever see an analysis or spectrogram of 115?

Lazar:
Yes.

Caller:
And what did that tell you?

Lazar:
Well, that it was an unknown element.  Then we did density
and weight calculations, which are pretty basic, and of
course it was too heavy for its physical size.  It was
an X-Ray spectrograph.  I don't remember what other
tests we did to it.

Caller:
How did you know what the times of testing would be to
go up to the sites to view the object.  And do you know
where it's being tested now?

Lazar:
Dennis told me the testing times.  And of course those
were the times that I relayed to other people, and we
went out there.  What was the other question?

Caller:
Do you know where it's being tested now?

Lazar:
Oh, I have no idea. In fact, if I was them, the last
place I would test them would be S-4.

Another Caller:
Are you familiar with Alnico 5 magnetic material we
use here?

Lazar:
Yeah, it's a common -- I never heard the 5
designation.

Caller:
It's a very dense magnet.  Is that close to the
material of 115?

Lazar:
Oh no, not at all.  That's an acronym for aluminum,
nickel, iron, and cobalt, none of them being anywhere
near it whatsoever.

Caller:
Are there portholes on that craft?

Lazar:
At the very top, there is portholes; they are square,
though.

Caller:
But they must be able to see by TV or. . .?

Lazar:
I don't know.  I just saw from the outside.  When I was
inside, I never -- I don't think I really even bothered
to look up there; I don't recall.

Caller:
With the gravity generators running, is there thermal
radiation?

Lazar:
No, not at all.  I was never down on the bottom WHILE
the gravity generators were running, but the reactor
itself -- there's no thermal radiation whatsoever.  That
was one of the really shocking things because that
violates the first law of thermodynamics.

Caller:
The atomic weight of the 115 material:  Is that heavier?
We know the 115 atomic weight would be different from the
gravitational weight.  Is the gravitational weight of
that material very heavy?

Lazar:
Yeah.

Caller:
How does that stuff break off?  Do you saw it or does it
grind up.  How do you get to test grams or whatever it is?

Lazar:
I don't know.  I really don't know how that's machined into
it.  I know it is machined, but I don't know if there's
any special procedures employed.

Caller:
Does it melt?

<Continued next message...>

--
Michael Corbin - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


~From: paranet!p0.f422.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG!Michael.Corbin
~Subject: KVEG/Lazar Transcript #14
~Date: 28 Dec 89 02:03:00 GMT

<...Continued from previous message>

Lazar:
I'm sure it does.  And just historically, all heavy elements
are also toxic.  I imagine it is a very toxic thing.  What
else?  If you use the standard designations as started at
103, its name would be "unuspentium [sp?]." Its symbol --
if it's going to be plugged into the periodic chart -- would
be UUP.  In fact. I have a friend that gave it kind of a cute
name; he calls it "unobtainium."

Caller:
In your wildest dreams, do you think you would be able to
create any of this stuff on earth -- in order to do the same
thing?

Lazar:
In fact, I'm in the process of fabricating the gravity
amplifier, but then I'm at a tremendous shortage for power.
So yeah, I have even tried to do that stuff on my own.

Caller:
Is there any electronics as we know it -- chips or
transitors?

Lazar:
No, nothing like that.  Because of the tremendous power
involved, too, there was no direct connection between
the gravity amplifiers and the reactor itself.

Caller:
Are the wave guides similar to what we use with
microwaves?

Lazar:
Very similar.

Goodman:
You mentioned all heavy metals are toxic?

Lazar:
Yeah, they seem to be.  Lead, radium, plutonium . . .

Goodman:
Element 115?

Lazar:
You would just assume it would be toxic.

Caller:
Is Sector 4 also called Papoose Dry Lake Bed?

Lazar:
Yeah.

Caller:
Is it also in a place called Emigrant Valley?

Lazar:
Right.  You can see Papoose Dry Lake from out of the
hangar doors.

Caller:
In regard to the long-range method of travel, isn't
a propulsion unit the wrong idea?  I feel this device
is creating a situation where it is diminishing or removing
the localized gravitational field, and long-distance body
that they're heading toward is actually PULLING the vehicle
rather than it being pushed.  Am I correct in this?

Lazar:
The vehicle is not being pushed.  But being pulled implies
it's being pulled by something externally:  it's pulling
something else to IT.  IT's creating the gravitational
field.

Caller:
Is there any relation to the monopoles which [scientists]
have been looking for?

Lazar:
Well, they've been looking for the monopole magnet.
But then this [the UFO force] is a gravitational force.

Caller:
Different things but exhibiting similar effects?

Lazar:
Right.

Caller:
Last night I saw a four-door Japanese car.  On the
right-side, rear, passenger door there were three
9mm bullet holes, about a 12-inch group.  Is that
the vehicle that was shot at?

Lazar:
No.  That's similar to my car, but they missed me.

New Caller:
Do we give something in exchange for all this information
they're giving us?

Lazar:
I really don't know.  I don't know what went on behind
the scenes as far as how we got the technology.

Caller:
Did they give us the 115 in large quantities?

Lazar:
Yeah, 500 pounds is what I'm told.  The way I've
seen it, it comes in little thin disks close to the
size of a half dollar.

Caller:
Did you ever own any, or -- ?

Lazar:
Yeah.

Caller:
What happened to it?

Lazar:
It's gone.  It was stolen out of my house along with
some other stuff that I got from there.

Caller:
[By] the Government?

Lazar:
That's what I assume; I HOPE it's in their hands;
I'd hate it to be in . . .  A few people did know
about it -- some UFO-related people -- and I'd hate
for unexperienced people to be in possession of
the stuff.

But yeah, that was taken.  We did get some film of
it and some film of it doing some really unusual
things.

Caller:
How did you get hired at Area 51?

<Continued next message...>

--
Michael Corbin - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


~From: paranet!p0.f422.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG!Michael.Corbin
~Subject: KVEG/Lazar Transcript #15
~Date: 28 Dec 89 02:06:00 GMT

<...Continued from previous message>

Lazar:
I was referred by a well-known physicist to talk to
someone.  And I really don't want to go all into that
because then I'm pointing fingers at specific people.

Caller:
Were everyone's mouths shut where you worked?

Lazar:
Yeah, everyone wouldn't let you talk, and it wasn't a
really happy environment.  Everyone was just into what
they were doing and that was it.

New Caller:
What year were you working up there?

Lazar:
Last year.

Caller:
I heard from someone I know that's a pretty good
source that a small amount of plutonium, like a picogram,
might be good for you.  Is that true?

Lazar:
No, not at all.

Goodman:
What would you use plutonium for?

Lazar:
To die.  In the lungs, it's almost immediate lung cancer.
It's toxic in itself.  The body has a tough time getting
rid of it.  It's just bad news.

Goodman:
And you're messing with it.

Lazar:
I don't have any at my house.

Goodman:
You said that's part of what you're working on.

Lazar:
Electronic equipment to detect plutonium:  They're
called alpha radiation detectors or air proportional
detectors.

Goodman:
Why do you want to detect the plutonium?

Lazar:
They use them to screen personnel that are leaving an
area that's been plutonium contaminated; they check
equipment for plutonium contamination; so on and so
forth.

Goodman:
This is as bad as radiation?

Lazar:
Plutonium does produce radiation.

Goodman:
So it's as bad as when they've been clearing the people
in nuclear power plants and stuff like this?

Lazar:
Yeah.

Goodman:
And you're devising a device that's going to be
easier?

Lazar:
No, our device is just less expensive.

Caller:
Can you list your credentials?

Lazar:
As far as what?

Caller:
Schooling, degrees.

Lazar:
I have two masters degrees; one's in physics; one's in
electronics.  I wrote my thesis on MHD, which is
magnetohydrodynamics.

I worked at Los Alamos for a few years as a technician
and then as a physicist in the Polarized Proton Section,
dealing with the accelerator there.

I was hired at S-4 as a senior staff physicist to work on
gravitational propulsion systems and whatnot associated with
those crafts.

Caller:
What school did you go to?

Lazar:
I'd rather not say, the reason being I am currently
working with them under contract, and I'm having enough trouble
with this as it is.

Caller:
Why did you leave the Groom Lake project?

Lazar:
I don't want to go into that either.  That's a big,
long complicated story.  It gets into my personal life,
too, and I don't want to get into that.

Caller:
Have there been any attempts made on your life?

Lazar:
Yeah.

Caller:
When was the last one?

Lazar:
There was only one direct one.  I really don't remember
when that was, maybe six, eight months ago, something like
that.  Just being shot at getting out on the freeway.

Caller:
Did another car drive by and shoot you?

<Continued next message...>

--
Michael Corbin - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


~From: paranet!p0.f422.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG!Michael.Corbin
~Subject: KVEG/Lazar Transcript #16
~Date: 28 Dec 89 02:09:00 GMT

<...Continued from previous message>

Lazar:
Yeah.

Caller:
Are there any weapons on board the alien craft?

Lazar:
Not that I know of.  Of course, the gravity generators
themselves can be focused, and I imagine that can be
used as a weapon.

Caller:
How many alien people do they hold?

Lazar:
I don't know.  How many people can you fit in a car?
I imagine if there's a bunch standing up, you can pack
them in there.

Caller:
Is Element 115 an extraterrestrial material?

Lazar:
Yes, definitely.

Caller:
How do you suppose the S-4 project came to acquire
500 pounds if it's not from this world?

Lazar:
I would imagine it came on one of the craft.

Caller:
Extra fuel, huh?

Lazar:
Maybe.

Caller:
How close can a civilian get to Area 51 or Emigrant
Valley?  What is security like?  How many guards and
so forth?

Lazar:
I think the closest you can get is probably about 10 miles,
and then you get a mountain between you and them.

Caller:
A lot of patrols?

Lazar:
Oh yeah.

Goodman:
Off the air, you said you traveled one time on hydrogen
in your car.

Lazar:
Yeah, I had a 1978 TransAm I converted to run on hydrogen.

Goodman:
We were talking about this one night as a new fuel for
transportation.  Is that more dangerous than gasoline?

Lazar:
It depends how it's stored.  There's ways you can do it.

You can store it as a gas, compressed in a cylinder where,
yeah, it's dangerous and explosive.

You can store it as a liquid -- cryogenic liquid --
where it's also dangerous and explosive.

Or you can also store it in a hydride [sp], a chemical
that absorbs hydrogen like a sponge absorbs water.  When
it's in that storage state, it's really not flammable.
You heat the chemical using the radiator water, or electrically,
or the exhaust gas to produce the hydrogen, and there's only
a small amount at a time ever produced.  And in that instance
it's a lot safer than gasoline, and that's the method I use.

Goodman:
In other words, we could put these in automobiles?

Lazar:
Absolutely, definitely.  The only exhaust is water vapor --
essentially steam and very little oxides.

Goodman:
Where do we get hydrogen?

Lazar:
The most common place is from water.  When you pass electricity
through water, you break down the bonds and wind up with oxygen
and hydrogen.

Goodman:
What could we be charged if we pulled up to a tank and asked
for some water?

Lazar:
It takes energy to separate the water back into its molecular
state, or atomic state rather.


Goodman:
But forgetting what the components are inside the car, if
a driver were to drive up, they would just have to put water
into this particular unit?  Could they make it that simple?

Lazar:
You could make it that simple, yes.

Goodman:
Has this been known for years in the scientific field?

Lazar:
There's been plenty of cars that have been made to run on
hydrogen.  In fact one state somewhere has their entire postal
fleet with little jeeps that run on hydrogen.  There's a
company called Billings Energy that does the conversions.

Goodman:
Why do you think it's not being made readily available to us?

Lazar:
There's probably lots of reasons.  You're looking at the oil
companies. . .

Goodman:
Okay.  That's what I wanted to get to.

Lazar:
But you can always point your finger at them for anything.

Goodman:
But I mean, it's just being held back from us even though it
could be here.

Lazar:
But you've got the problem of availability, too, if you're
going to just use gaseous hydrogen.

Goodman:
What would it take to change our current motor in a car to
accept this?

Lazar:
Not very much at all.  It's very similar to a propane
conversion.

Goodman:
Have you heard from Mr. Teller at all?

Lazar:
No.

Goodman:
Not one word?  In other words, he's done nothing at all?

Lazar:
No.

Goodman:
You said we're nowhere near being able to have an
anti-matter reactor?

Lazar:
No, not at all.  The first thing we'll come up with
when we toy with that some more is -- and there's already
been talk of it -- is an anti-matter weapon.  Unfortunately,
that's the easiest thing to produce.  First we'll see that
before we'll see potential useful uses.

<Continued next message...>

--
Michael Corbin - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


~From: paranet!p0.f422.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG!Michael.Corbin
~Subject: KVEG/Lazar Transcript #17
~Date: 28 Dec 89 02:13:00 GMT

<...Continued from previous message>

Goodman:
I was talking to Bob Lazar off the air, and Bob is a jet
car driver.  That's how he relaxes, doing 350 miles per hour.

Roger:
Are the nine disks quite different in appearance?

Lazar:
Yeah, they're all completely different in appearance.

Roger:
Are they then perhaps from different star systems?

Lazar:
Could be.

Roger:
You said the one you looked at, the Sport Model, was from
Reticulum, right?

Lazar:
That's what I READ.

Roger:
So that has the gravity propulsion system.  But then some
of the others may have some other type of propulsion system?

Lazar:
I was told that the reactors are all similar in them [the crafts],
and from that I just assume that the propulsion system is the
same.  But it is possible that the other ones have different
propulsion systems, yeah.

Roger:
How many light years from Earth to Reticulum?

Lazar:
32, 33, 34, somewhere around there.

Roger:
They must get away from Earth before they amplify these
gravitational systems, do they not?

Lazar:
They don't HAVE to, but it has to be a line of sight where
they can move to.

Roger:
In other words, it wouldn't have any effect on the Earth even
though it were close to it when they turned it on?

Lazar:
No.

Roger:
Where do the aliens fit into religion?  They must say
something about it.  I heard that they had a [bearing]
on us through religion, perhaps through colonization.

Lazar:
I've read some about that.  You know, I don't want to
go into that because that's going to upset everybody.

Caller:
What is the top speed of the craft?

Lazar:
It's tough to say a top speed because to say speed you have
to compare distance and time.  And when you're screwing
around with time and distorting it, you can no longer judge
a velocity.  They're not traveling in a linear mode where they
just fly and cover a certain distance in a certain time.
That's the real definition of speed.  They're bending and
distorting space and then essentially snapping it back with
the craft, so the distances they can travel are phenomenal --
in little or no time.  So speed has little bearing.

Caller:
Is the laser part of their technology or their flying speed?

Lazar:
No, I haven't seen anything along that line.

Caller:
Is Rockwell involved with that?

Lazar:
Not that I've seen.

Pistol:
You've mentioned anti-gravity generator and anti-matter
generator.  Are they different?

Lazar:
It's not a gravity generator; it's a gravity amplifier.  I
get tongue-twisted all too often.

The anti-matter reactor provides the power for the craft and
the basic low-amplitude gravitational wave, which is too low
of an amplitude to do anything.  It's piped into the gravity
amplifiers, which are found at the bottom of the craft.
There it's amplified into an extremely powerful wave, and
that's what the craft is flown on.  But there is an anti-matter
reactor:  that's what provides the power.

Roger Nelson, KBAY-Radio San Francisco  announcer:
Last time I asked Bob Lazar about the hyper-light propulsion
systems he had seen, he said the crafts have hyper-light
capabilities -- beyond the speed of light.  Do you know
anyone in our government or who worked on the craft who
might be from Earth who has taken those craft and flown
past the speed of light to other galaxies?

Lazar:
I don't, and I don't know if they have been used for that.

Nelson:
Is there any way to find how many of our guys on particular
programs have gone to space, what they're learning, exactly
where they are now, and whether or not there's any tie-in
with the Alternative Three Escape-Earth Plan that supposedly the
Government leaders are stirring up now.  Is there any place
that you know of that this information can be found?

Lazar:
I imagine, if any of that is in fact true, it would be found in
the midst of S-4 or 51 down there.  But how to contact those guys
and actually get them to talk is a feat not yet attained.

Nelson:
What is it you are now doing now that they have cut you off
at the knees?

Lazar:
I do other scientific research and produce, design, and
repair alpha radiation detection equipment.

Nelson:
A number of copies of these broadcasts and the show on
Channel 8 and all the other stuff has been getting around,
perhaps even internationally.  Has anybody bothered you since
you went public?

Lazar:
Other than the sily little things that have been done, no,
nothing, nothing big to be concerned about.

Nelson:
Are we going to see you at any of these things like the
January 7th conference ["An Evening With Bill Cooper," Showboat
Hotel Sports Pavilion, Las Vegas, Nevada, 5:00 p.m. - 8:00 p.m.,
$15 per person], or other symposiums in the future?

Lazar:
I don't think so, no.

Nelson:
Well look, I think you're a very brave man.  With that kind of
an onus on your head, it takes a lot of courage to keep coming
back to the airwaves.  I stand up and cheer as one.

Caller:
How do your magnetohydrodynamics studies relate to the hot
spots in the earth's magnetic flux, and does that relate to the
deep-hole theory, the Soviet Union's plan?

Lazar:
I don't know what the Soviet Union's plan was.  I looked at
it from a power point of view, as producing on a large scale
plasma-generated energy in a power-plant situation, or producing
something that would retrofit -- like a coal-fired plant that
has a lot of waste heat and high-energy plasma.

Caller:
The question is, are you experimenting using the earth's flux?

<Continued next message...>

--
Michael Corbin - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


~From: paranet!p0.f422.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG!Michael.Corbin
~Subject: KVEG/Lazar Transcript #18 (Conclusion)
~Date: 28 Dec 89 02:17:00 GMT

<...Continued from previous message>

Lazar:
No.  There's stand-alone high-energy magnets that I use.

Caller:
What is the atomic weight of 115?

Lazar:
I hate even to guess.  I know it because we've written it down
because we've calculated it, but I really don't remember.

Caller:
Can you give us a ballpark?

Lazar:
No, 'cause I'd be wrong!  Just like if I gave a ballpark on the
gravitational wave frequency -- and that's really bugging the hell
out of me.

There were three things, as a matter of fact, that for some reason
I've developed a mental block on.  I'll have to call Billy, and
then he can announce it on the air.  I'll just call him and then
he can relay it to everyone.

New Caller:
I'd like to stand up and cheer for Bob Lazar!  It does take a
lot of courage, and it's about time somebody stepped forward with
some information that's being kept from us for so long.

How long do you think it took them to make their journey here,
using their methods of propulsion?

Lazar:
An extremely short time.  I'd hesitate to say, but I don't think
you're even looking at days.

Caller:
Is that because of this gravity lines-of-force thing or because
time stands still for them and it really does take a long time
but they don't know it because time stands still?

Lazar:
No, they're actually traveling almost IN-BETWEEN time because
of the way that they distort time and space.  So that they're
traveling vast distances without the incrementation of time.
The time would be very, very little.  Days is probably --
I'm way off saying that, too.  But I hate to say something
and be really far off.

Caller:
Could these aliens be robots and not actually be native beings
from that galaxy?

Lazar:
I imagine it's possible.  Who knows what actually flew the
craft, whether or not aliens have ever been in Area S-4
down there, but it's possible that some automated creature
flew them.  Who knows?

Goodman:
You made a statement when he asked how long it took them
to get here, and when you were inside the spacecraft itself
you didn't see any sleeping quarters.  So perhaps they just
start in the morning and they're here in the afternoon;
it's that simple as far as OUR time goes.

Lazar:
If it even takes that long.

Barbara:
When your hypnotherapist, Layne Keck, talked on the air
about you, did you request that?

Lazar:
That he talk about me?

Barbara:
Uh huh.

Lazar:
No, George Knapp requested that, and then Layne called me to
find out if it would be okay, and I said yeah, go ahead.

Barbara:
Well, I called the office and that was what I was told,
and it didn't seem quite --

Lazar:
That I requested Layne to go on?  No.

Barbara:
That's what the person in the office said.

How was your experience there with him?  How did you feel
about your experience?

Lazar:
As far as what?  How I got along with Layne?

Barbara:
No.  As far as how you felt comfortable with going back
to some unpleasant experiences.

Lazar:
The emotions came up when you're under hypnosis, and that
part wasn't exactly pleasant.

Barbara:
How do you feel about it today?

Lazar:
I feel better.  At the time, it wasn't very pleasant.
But in general, just being under hypnosis is a really
good feeling.

Barbara:
You have the videotape of that?

Lazar:
Yeah.

Barbara:
It's in your possession?

Lazar:
I don't want to say where it is, but I know where it is.

Barbara:
I'm going to be doing that because I was with him.  So for
my own personal information, I just wanted to do that,
because I have good aliens, bad aliens, you know, it runs
in my family.  And there's an extreme reason why I'm going to
be doing this, so I wanted to clarify that and try to
make myself . . .Although I can do it on my own, I won't
go deeper than a certain point.

New Caller:
Is there any limit on the distance a spaceship can travel.
Can it actually travel out of our galaxy to the Andromeda
galaxy?  How far can 223 grams of Element 115 take you?

Lazar:
I really don't know.  From what I understand, the actual
consumption of the element is very low; I imagine it is
possible with enough [junk] made to travel to another galaxy.

Caller:
I assume the gravity wave is more powerful than the
gamma wave, correct?

Lazar:
Than the GAMMA wave?

Caller:
Or the spectral wave?  What's the limit on light waves
with the 10 billion light years or something -- how far light
can travel?

Lazar:
A limit as far as what?  It depends on the interaction:
the gravitational fields the beam passes through, the
photons pass through, and so on and so forth, so there's
no real limit at true dead space.

As I said last time, and only one person took advantage
of it, if anyone does have any questions they want to ask
me, they can write in care of this station.  A person called
earlier and wanted a copy of that newspaper article.  I
have no problem in copying that and sending it to him.
So just write to the station, whatever the address is.

=================================================================
1220LAZ.UFO

Thanks to Robert B. Klinn, ParaNet's Director of Research and Investigation
for the preparation of this transcript.




                      Info-ParaNet Newsletters, Number 117

                          Saturday, December 30th 1989

Today's Topics:

                          Harder Transcript (Lazar)
                      Reply to "Skeptical Inquirer" - MJ-12
                                  New Affiliate

--------------------------------------------------------------------


~From: paranet!p0.f422.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG!Michael.Corbin
~Subject: Harder Transcript (Lazar) #1
~Date: 30 Dec 89 10:44:00 GMT

========================================================
(C) Copyright 1989 ParaNet Information Service
All Rights Reserved unless copyrighted by Author.
========================================================

Chuck Harder
Excerpt from:  For the People
Sun Radio Network
heard on affiliate KROL-AM Radio, Las Vegas, Nevada
12/[14 ]/89, 10 :00 am - 1:00 p.m.

Chuck Harder:
T.J., hello!

TJ:
I have a couple questions regarding Mr. Lazar and Mr. Knapp, whom
I'm associated with here in Las Vegas.

Harder:
Bless your heart!

TJ:
I originally heard that that was going to be aired today.  I seem
to think you have some kind of difficulty getting it on?

Harder:
The  bottom  line  is,  as you know, Bob  Lazar  does  a  lot  of
traveling, and trying to get him to a telephone and get it hooked
up to us seems to be a problem.  And we hope that he will be able
to get to a pay phone where he would feel comfortable or a  phone
where  he would feel comfortable and call the 800 number.  And  I
hope we'll be able to get him on.

TJ:
Oh, so you still are going to air that today?

Harder:
We're working on it.  I was just talking to George on the  break,
and  we're trying to get hooked up with Bob.  We have a bit of  a
problem  because there's so many doggoned many 800  lines  coming
in,  what we may have to do is screen them and apologize  to  the
people who are calling 'cause we're looking for Bob, okay?

TJ:
That makes sense.

I'm a very good listener to your program through George.  I would
like information to get "For the People," your subscription every
month.

Harder:
Write  to  us;  enclose  a check for  $15.   We're  a  non-profit
organization,  so part of that is income tax deductible,  and  we
send out a circular telling you how much; I think quite a bit  of
it  is if you itemize.  Send it to For the People, P.O. Box  101,
Cedar Key, FL  32625.

The next issue of our magazine will be very, very heavy into  the
UFO issue with some closeup color photos of what Bob Lazar  calls
the Sport Model.

TJ:
Right.  I'm familiar with that.

If I were to subscribe within the next couple of days, would I be
able to get that particular issue?

Harder:
Yes,  but  we'll  also  print some extras,  so  we'll  have  them
available.

TJ:
I  heard  you  and Mr. Andrus speaking  about  cattle  and  human
comparison in blood.  The only misstatement I heard -- I've  done
some  research  into this along with these guys --  from  what  I
understand,  in a government emergency, the cattle's blood  would
be  transferred  and  made into PLASMA so it could  be  used  for
humans,  a  direct  transfusion.   The  chromosomes  are   almost
identical in makeup.  And they can turn cow's blood into a plasma
for humans, but that would be it.

Harder:
That's pretty neat, isn't it?

TJ:
Yeah, absolutely.

These  little  guys  are  coming down and  picking  them  up  and
examining them.

Harder:
Other  people  say that the cow "squeezings," if  you  please  --
their  squeezing  a cow like we would squeeze an  orange  --  are
utilized as nourishment.

TJ:
Yeah,  they  make  an enzyme and spread it  upon  themselves  and
absorb it because their digestive systems are atrophied.   That's
information supplied by Mr. Lear, and I would assume some of that
through Bob also.

Mr.  Andrus of MUFON doesn't want to claim that they  know  where
the "greys" are from, but yet this information is pretty  readily
available  out  here in the Southwest.  They're  supposedly  from
Reticulum  4, just from Zeta Reticuli, just 37 light  years  from
the planet Earth.

Harder:
Walt  Andrus is a fine, fine gentleman, and you  understand  he's
extremely conservative.

TJ:
Oh,  I  understand that.  I didn't really even want  to  misstate
myself  there.  But I guess just being involved with  these  guys
down  here where we've got all this stuff going on so close  that
sometimes I expect everybody else to have the same information.

Harder:
I'm  glad  you're passing it on and I welcome  this  information.
The thing that we're trying to do right now -- and I'll just come
out  and  tell you -- we're trying to make sure  that  the  other
media has the information.  When George Knapp and I spoke for abo
ut  an hour, we transcribed it, and the transcriptions have  been
requested by several different people in the media.

And  this  morning, I even FAXed the transcription to  the  front
page editor of the Wall Street Journal because not only did  they
want it but George will readily admit, as I'm sure would Bob, and
yours truly, that we want them to have it for our own protection.
Because I feel I've dug a little bit too deep.

TJ:
Oh yeah, I'm sure. I'm surprised George hasn't been hassled  more
than he has because he's at the forefront of the media with  most
of  this  [relevant] information.  He's done an  outstanding  job
here locally.

Harder:
Well, I understand that George has had his own problems.  And  he
has told me what I feel what might be a tip of the iceberg.   And
he was on the air with us yesterday.

But  I  feel that for the protection of Bob Lazar and  of  George
Knapp  and   KLAS-TV and everybody else who's  been  involved,  I
think that the rest of America needs to know.

TJ:
Oh absolutely.  I've even been out to this area -- the Area 51 --
on   [viewing  it  from]  public  land,  and  observed  --   from
information  from George -- on where to go, where to  stand,  and
when to stand to see these things when they were testing them out
there before they moved them.

And he's right on the money!  They were there!  They're no longer
there, but they WERE there.  They moved them deeper into the Test
Site  to  an area called Area 10, to the best of  my  information
through a couple of MY sources out at the Nevada Test Site.

Harder:
Where are the aliens now?

TJ:
Aliens?  I  can't tell you.  I don't know anything  about  aliens
from  what I'm seeing.  I'm talking about the recovered  material
that  they had at S-4 out at Area 51 -- the disks.  But the  best
of our information at this point is that was moved from that area
and deeper into a site, deeper into the Test Site that they  call
Area 10.

So  it's  just because it got to the point that  when  they  were
running the tests, they had everybody locally interested in  UFOs
at  one point; I mean they even chartered buses and drove  up  to
the area to stand on public land and wait to watch for the tests.

Obviously, the Governmment got a little upset at that.  And  they
shut  the highways down, as a matter of fact, which  is  probably
not  public  information.  They shut down two highways  that  run
right by the Test Site, for a weekend.  One was Highway 375;  the
other  was Highway 318; and they shut them completely  down,  and
they  did a massive amount of moving in that area at  that  time.
They were using diesel trucks marked with Piggly Wiggly and  some
other supermarket chains to transfer a lot of their equipment.

Harder:
Why won't they tell us, TJ?

TJ:
It  depends on whose line you really want to believe.  I've  been
investigating  since  1980,  and not that I'm that  crack  of  an
investigator.   I  am a police officer.  I have  learned  how  to
investigate.  But Mr. Lear probably has a pretty good  foundation
on  a lot what's going on.  A lot of people don't choose or  care
to believe what he's saying.

Harder:
His  material,  by the way, will be in our next magazine  --  his
public material.

TJ:
Great!   I'm  sure  that it's going to startle a  lot  of  people
because  if  you subscribe to Mr. Lear's line  of  thought,  then
we're  in a lot of serious trouble.  It's to the point  that  the
Government,  and the Government has no control over what's  going
on,  and  they made a false treaty with them, because  they  knew
they were going to go ahead and do what they wanted to do anyway.
And  I guess we were trying to make some technology advances  out
of it, and our government got greedy again at that point.

And  I'm  sure -- I don't want to step on Mr. Lazar  or  George's
information  -- I'm sure they're going to want to get this  stuff
out about when they had a conflict out here.  Mr. Lazar allegedly
replaced  a  scientist that was killed by the aliens out  at  the
Test Site; and that's how he got involved in the program.  But  I
don't  know a lot about that myself; I can only go by  what  I've
been  told by these guys; and I'm sure they want to elaborate  on
that.

Harder:
Well,  the  information  has reached us  from  many,  many,  many
different  sources,  from people who want no money.   They  don't
even  want to be identified.  And they have no reason to give  us
the  information, and yet from 10, 15, 20, 30 different  sources,
we get the same information.

First  of all, we thought it was rumor and it was the same  story
going  around.  We tried to track it down further, and  we  found
out, no, it wasn't the same story.  So it's fascinating.

TJ:
It's definitely that.  And living this close to whatever  they've
got  going  on  out at the Test Site where  they're  testing  the
disks, it's pretty phenomenal to be able to --

Even  at  one  point earlier in the year,  I  mean  they  stopped
testing  out  there, as far as anybody could  tell,  probably  in
September,  because it just got too public at that  point.   Even
August may have been the last tests.

But we -- there was a group of people -- in fact, I was out there
with a photojournalist that got some photos one of the nights  we
were out there.

We had them developed, and you can't see disks, but what you  can
see  are  orange tracers in the sky -- I  mean  pretty  elaborate
orange  tracers from the fact that this thing MOVED over quite  a
distance during just the snapping in the shutter.  It left bright
orange  streaks across the photographs.  It's pretty  interesting
stuff.

Harder:
The  abductions, I think, are something that's going to  get  the
attention of America.  Why they are taking us.  Where I live, the
synchronicity  of the incidents is very, very fascinating.   Just
recently,  we  had a family disappear.  They were  camping  on  a
little  island  out  in the Gulf  of  Mexico;  they  disappeared.
Everything was found but them.

We  had a commercial fisherman disappear; a lot of fishermen  are
afraid to go out in ther Gulf.

Not  too far north of here we had other people disappear.   We've
had cattle mutilations right nearby.  So there's been a lot going
on.   And  a  tremendous amount of UFO sightings, and  a  lot  of
little  newspapers  around here have run articles  about  strange
lights in the sky.  You know, afraid to run the article, but they
just had to run them.  So they ran them with, "Gee, what's  going
on?  What is that?  We don't know.  Nobody will tell us."

And you start clipping these things and you put them all together
and you go, what's going on?

TJ:
Once  you  get  into researching,  it's  blatantly  obvious  that
there's  something going on.  It leaves you no room for any  type
of  doubt that there actually are some type  of  extraterrestrial
visitors here.  The evidence is overwhelming.

Other than the fact that if we were to send a flying saucer  down
on  the lawn of the White House, it's going to take an awful  lot
to  get  the Government to admit anything.  They're  so  involved
they've  got their hands bloodied over the whole thing.   There's
been  people disappear, people even murdered over all  this.   So
it's  obvious  that they're not going to come clean on  it.   The
issue  is  going to have to be forced.  There's no other  way  to
look at it.  That's my opinion.

Harder:
TJ, thanks for calling up.

=================================================================
1214HARD.UFO



~From: paranet!p0.f422.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG!Michael.Corbin
~Subject: KLAS/Lazar Transcript #1
~Date: 30 Dec 89 10:26:00 GMT

========================================================
(C) Copyright 1989 ParaNet Information Service
All Rights Reserved unless copyrighted by Author.
========================================================

On the Record, KLAS-TV, Las Vegas, Nevada, 12/9/89, 7:00 p.m.-
7:30 p.m.

George Knapp, producer/host
Robert Lazar, guest

George Knapp:
Hello, and welcome to On the Record.

One month ago, we began a series of reports about UFOs.  With the
exception of a few cranky newspaper people, the response has been
overwhelmingly positive.  We've had requests for more information
from  all over the country and from all over the world.   Tonight
we're  going to delve a little deeper into the subject  with  the
man  who was the impetus for our report in the first  place,  Bob
Lazar.

Bob,  good to have you here.  A thumbnail sketch of yourself  for
those who might not be familiar with your background.

Robert Lazar:
I worked at Los Alamos National Lab.

Knapp:
As a physicist?

Lazar:
As a physicist, and hired as a senior staff physicist at Area  S-
4, for what I was told anyway was the United States Navy.

Knapp:
Where is S-4?

Lazar:
It's  about 10 to 15 miles south of Groom Lake, about  125  miles
north of Las Vegas.

Knapp:
How did you get the job?

Lazar:
I really don't want to mention the guy who I got it through.  But
I  was  referred to a person at EG&G to drop off  my  resume  to;
that's  where  I was interviewed; though the  job  is  COMPLETELY
unrelated to EG&G.

Knapp:
What  did they tell you you were going to be doing?  Or DID  they
tell you?

Lazar:
No,  they really didn't tell me until the very end.  They said  a
high-technology job, something that I'd be very interested in.

Knapp:
Okay, so you get hired.  And what happens?  Do you fly up there?

Lazar:
Fly  up there.  First day was reading briefings and that sort  of
thing.   And it became evident to me pretty quickly the level  of
technology they were dealing with:  gravitational propulsion  and
things that science has really only barely touched on.

Knapp:
We'll  get into the things that you saw in a couple  of  minutes.
But  it's  been about a little more than three weeks  since  your
identity was made public.  We had you on another program a couple
of  months  ago  --  using an assumed  name  and  having  you  in
silhouette  -- but since your identity has been made  public  and
since this information has been made public, what's it been like?
What's been the response from people that see you on the street?

Lazar:
The  response has been almost all favorable.  In  fact,  everyone
that I've run into has been very supportive, very interested.   I
guess there's just two or three letters --

Knapp:
-- from people that don't believe you?

Lazar:
Yeah.  Essentially.

Knapp:
Responses from other media outlets as well?

Lazar:
Yeah.

Knapp:
They want to interview you?  What do they want?

Lazar:
Essentially everything, yes.  Radio interviews, TV interviews.  A
lot  of people want to dig back into my background  and  re-trace
everything.

Knapp:
Many of the people who have been calling -- calling us as well --
were under the impression that either you've gone underground  or
you've been silenced or we've been silenced by dark and  sinister
forces.  Anything like that happen to you so far?

Lazar:
That's ridiculous.  People are always going over the deep end  on
that.   And no one's told me -- other than originally --  not  to
say anything.  And I'm sure no one's come forward to you.

Knapp:
But in the beginning, they told you to keep quiet about this.

Lazar:
Oh yeah!  It's the most secret program in the United States.

Knapp:
In what way did they try to make sure you kept your mouth shut?

Lazar:
Everything up to death threats.  I mean CONSTANT reminders of it,
signing  away  my constututional rights for fair trial  and  that
sort of thing.

Knapp:
And since this thing, your phone's been tapped, you believe?

Lazar:
Yeah, I believe.  I have a tap detector, and occasionally after I
pick up the phone, a little red light goes on.

Knapp:
The  reason you came forward with the information to begin  with?
Is it related to the fact that they were bothering you?

Lazar:
Yeah, it was essentially to stop that.  What had happened was,  I
sent in a request for my birth certificate, and as it turned  out
it wasn't there anymore, that I wasn't born at the hospital!  And
that  kind  of  got me wondering what's going on.   I  put  in  a
request  for some other information, previous jobs, and that  was
also  gone,  and  I thought something had to  be  done  before  I
disappeared.

Knapp:
The same thing -- it was Los Alamos? They've never heard of you?

Lazar:
Yeah.

Knapp:
Anything happened since the reports have aired?

Lazar:
They let me know that they were around by doing stupid,  childish
little things.  But nothing serious, no.

Knapp:
You  were  worried  about your LIFE though  for  a  while  there,
weren't you?

Lazar:
That was one of the reasons to come on and let everything out  on
the air; it's a little of insurance.

Knapp:
Are you worried any more?  Do you get the feeling you're over the
hump?

Lazar:
To some degree, yeah.

Knapp:
Do you find that most people really believe you or that they just
want more information?

Lazar:
I  think alot of people believe what I said, but the  majority  I
think  do  just  want more information, too.   It's  an  in-depth
subject.

Knapp:
Let's look at some of the technology you saw.  When did you first
get  the  idea,  what's the first thing you  saw  that  made  you
convinced that it's not from here?

Lazar:
The  first  thing was HANDS-on experience  with  the  anti-matter
reactor.

Knapp:
Explain what that is and how it works and what it does.

Lazar:
It's a plate about 18 inches in diameter with a sphere on top.

Knapp:
We  have a tape of a model that a friend of yours made.  You  can
narrate along.  There it is.

Lazar:
Inside  that  tower  is a chip of Element 115 they  just  put  in
there.  That's a super-heavy element.  The lid goes on top.

And  as  far as any other of the workings of it, I  really  don't
know, you know, [such as] what's inside the bottom of it . . .

115  sets up a gravitational field around the top.   That  little
wave guide you saw being put on the top:  it essentially  siphons
off  the  gravity wave, and that's later amplified in  the  lower
portion of the craft.

But just in general, the whole technology is virtually unknown.

Knapp:
Now we saw the model.  We saw the pictures of it there.  It looks
really, really simple, almost too simple to actually do anything.

Lazar:
Right.

Knapp:
Working parts?

Lazar:
None  detectable.   Essentially, what the job was  was  to  back-
engineer everthing, where you have a finished product and to step
backwards  and find out how it was made or how it could  be  made
with earthly materials.  There hasn't been very much progress.

Knapp:
How long do you think they've had this technology up there?

Lazar:
It seems like quite a while, but I really don't know.

Knapp:
What  could you do with an anti-matter generator?  What  does  it
do?

Lazar:
It converts anti-matter . . .
It   DOESN'T  convert  anti-matter!   There's   an   annihilation
reaction.  It's an extremely powerful reaction, a hundred percent
conversion  of  matter  to energy, unlike  a  fission  or  fusion
reaction  which is somewhere around eight-tenths of  one  percent
conversion
 of matter to energy.

Knapp:
How does it work?  What starts the reaction going?

Lazar:
Really, once the 115 is put in, the reaction is initiated.

Knapp:
Automatic.

Lazar:
Right.

Knapp:
I  don't  understand.   I  mean, there's no  button  to  push  or
anything?

Lazar:
No, there's no button to push or anything.

Apparently,  the 115 under bombardment with protons lets  out  an
anti-matter particle.  This anti-matter particle will react  with
any  matter  whatsoever,  which I imagine there  is  some  target
system  inside  the reactor.  This, in turn, releases  heat,  and
somewhere  within  that system there  is  a  one-hundred-percent-
efficient thermionic generator, essentially a  heat-to-electrical
generator.

Knapp:
How  is this anti-matter reactor connected to gravity  generation
that you were talking about earlier?

Lazar:
Well, that reactor serves two purposes; it provides a  tremendous
amount  of electrical power, which is almost a  by-product.   The
gravitational wave gets formed at the sphere, and that's  through
some action of the 115, and the exact action I don't think anyone
really knows.

The  wave  guide  siphons  off  that  gravity  wave,  and  that's
channeled above the top of the disk to the lower part where there
are  three  gravity  amplifiers, which amplify  and  direct  that
gravity wave.

Knapp:
In essence creating their own gravitational field.

Lazar:
Their own gravitational field.

Knapp:
You're  fairly convinced that science on earth doesn't have  this
technology  right  now?  We have it now at S-4, I guess,  but  we
didn't create it?

Lazar:
Right.

Knapp:
Why not?  Why couldn't we?

Lazar:
The technology's not even -- We don't even know what gravity IS!

Knapp:
Well, what is it?  What have you learned about what gravity is?

Lazar:
Gravity  is  a  wave.  There are many  different  theories,  wave
included.   It's been theorized that gravity is  also  particles,
gravitons, which is also incorrect.  But gravity is a wave.   The
basic wave they can actually tap off of an element:  why that  is
I'm not exactly sure.

Knapp:
So you can produce your own gravity.  What does that mean?   What
does that allow you to do?

Lazar:
It  allows you to do virtually anything.  Gravity  distorts  time
and  space.  By doing that, now you're into a different  mode  of
travel,  where instead of traveling in a linear method  --  going
from Point A to B -- now you can distort time and space to  where
you essentially bring the mountain to Mohammad; you almost  bring
your destination to you without moving.

And since you're distorting time, all this takes place in between
moments of time.  It's such a far-fetched concept!

Knapp:
Of  course, what the UFO skeptics say is, yeah, there's life  out
there  elsewhere  in the universe; it can never come  here;  it's
just  too darn far.  With the kind of technology  you're  talking
about, it makes such considerations irrelevant about distance and
time and things like that.

Lazar:
Exactly, because when you are distorting time, there's no  longer
a  normal reference of time.  And that's what producing your  own
gravity does.

Knapp:
You  can go forward or backward in time?  Is that's  what  you're
saying?

Lazar:
No,  not essentially.  It would be easier with a model.   On  the
bottom  side of the disk are the three gravity generators.   When
they  want  to travel to a distant point, the disk turns  on  its
side.  The three gravity generators produce a gravitational beam.
 What they do is they converge the three gravity generators  onto
a point and use that as a focal point; and they bring them up  to
power and PULL that point towards the disk.  The disk itself will
attach  ONTO  that point and snap back -- AS THEY  RELEASE  SPACE
BACK TO THAT POINT!

Now  all this happens in the distortion of time, so time  is  not
incrementing.  So the SPEED is essentially infinite.

Knapp:
We'll get into the disks in a moment.  But the first time you saw
the  anti-matter reactor in operation or a demonstration  --  you
had a couple of demonstrations -- tell me about that.

Lazar:
The  first time I saw it in operation, we just put -- a friend  I
worked with, Barry -- put the fuel in the reactor, put the lid on
as, as was shown there.

Immediately, a gravitational field developed, and he said,  "Feel
it!"   And  it  felt like you bring two like poles  of  a  magnet
together; you can do that with your hand.  And it was FASCINATING
to do that, impossible, except on something with great mass!  And
obviously this is just a . . .

And it was a REPULSION field.  In fact, we kind of fooled  around
with it for a little while.  And we threw golf balls off it.  And
it was just a really unique thing.

Knapp:
And you had other demonstrations to show you that this is  pretty
wild stuff, right?

Lazar:
Yeah,  they  did.  They were able to channel the field off  in  a
demonstration  that they created an INTENSE  gravitational  area.
And you began to see a small little black disk form, and that was
the bending of the light.

Knapp:
Just like a black hole floating around?

Lazar:
Yeah, well, a black hole is a bad analogy, but yeah, essentially.

Knapp:
And  they  gave  you  some  kind  of  demonstration  about  time,
involving a candle?  Explain how that works.

Lazar:
Yeah,  they took a candle and lit it and put it in the  distorted
gravitational  field,  which distorts time, and the  candle  just
stood   there.    It  didn't  melt  or  burn.   It   was   REALLY
unbelievable!

Knapp:
You had to be floored by seeing all this.

Lazar:
Oh  I was!  That's why I'm kind of laughing about it now  because
it must sound ridiculous to everyone.  But it's just  phenomenal.
I mean this is really alien technology.

Knapp:
About the 115:  We talked a little bit about it in the series  of
reports.   Explain what it is again and why you believe it  could
not be manufactured here.

Lazar:
Okay,  it's a super-heavy element:  On the periodic chart,  which
lists   all  the  elements  found  on  earth  and  that  can   be
synthesized,  I think the highest element we've  synthesized  has
been about Element 106.

Now from 103 -- or actually, anything higher than plutonium up --
the  half-life  begins  to  drop; in  other  words,  the  element
disintegrates.  When you get up to Element 106, it's only  around
for  a very small amount of time.  Even science  today  theorizes
that  up around Element 113 to 116 -- somewhere in there --  they
should  again become stable.  This is in fact true.  That's  what
Element 115 is; it's a stable element.

To  synthesize  it would be impossible.  The  way  we  synthesize
heavy  elements  is,  we take a stable element  like  bismuth  or
something  like  that,  or plutionium, whatever,  put  it  in  an
accelerator,  and  BOMBARD  it with  protons.   Essentially  what
you're  trying  to  do  is plug in protons  into  the  atoms  and
increase  the atomic number.  To do that to the level of  Element
115  would just take an infinite amount of power and an  infinite
amount of time.

Knapp:
What  kinds  of things, what capabilities would a  heavy  element
like this have -- I mean other than producing power?   Obviously,
it can produce a LOT of power, right?

Lazar:
It  in itself is not anti-matter.  It just has a unique  property
of  producing  it.  Any of the other basic properties  it  has  I
really  don't know of.  But using just the  anti-matter-producing
property,  the  potential  for  a  weapon  is  staggering!   It's
absolutely staggering!

Knapp:
Like what?  A pound of it:  what could it do?

Lazar:
Well,  2.2  pounds  is the energy  equivalent  of  47  10-megaton
hydrogen  bombs.   I mean, it's a good bang!  And a  pound  of  a
super-heavy element is maybe the size of a plum or something like
that.

Knapp:
I  guess what I've heard most from people who just don't buy  the
whole  story is that sure, maybe you work at an area called  S-4,
and  maybe it is a secret area, but what you were shown is  stuff
that  we've made.  That we made this 115 -- if it is 115 --  that
we  made  the  flying  disks,  that  we  made  these  anti-matter
reactors,  because  these are advances that you just  don't  know
about.

Lazar:
Hardly.
[Lazar laughs.]

Knapp:
Why not?

Lazar:
Well,  the 115, it's impossible.  And the FACT that the main  job
of  everyone there is to find out how everything's made;  I  mean
that  just  contradicts  everything  right  off  the  bat.    The
materials  are completely alien to us, and just the overall  idea
of  the  project is:  Hey, can we duplicate this  with  materials
that we have here?  So obviously, it was something that was found
or given, for that matter, and we're just trying to duplicate it.

Knapp:
The  115:  Where do you suppose it came from then?  I mean,  what
kind of environment would that kind of element come from?

Lazar:
The  only  place  that 115 could be made would have to  be  in  a
natural situation, somewhere maybe on the fringes of a  supernova
or  somewhere around maybe a binary star system, where there  was
more  mass  in the primordial mix of that system,  where  heavier
elements  would  have had a chance to form, when the  stars  were
collapsing and there were huge amounts of energy being  released.
It's  something  along  these lines; it has to  be  a  naturally-
occurring element.

Knapp:
You  saw  an  anti-matter reactor.   You  saw  gravity-propulsion
systems  in flying disks, flying saucers.  You saw  this  Element
115.   You also read a series of reports that had other  stunning
information.  Can you give an overview of the kind of things that
were in these reports?

Lazar:
The  reason I didn't do that before was, first of all  they  were
just reports.  Everything else I had hands-on experience with.

Now  there  was LOTS of strange information in the  reports,  but
there   again  it's  just  printed  material  and  it  could   be
disinformation.  I don't know.  But certainly, the information  I
did read in the reports about 115, the disks, the grav -- I mean,
that all had material that related to that.

The  reports  went into aliens and even went along the  lines  of
religious --

Knapp:
Well,  we can let our audience know.  I mean we  discussed  this,
when we were putting this series of reports together, whether  to
get  into the alien thing or not, and we decided not to  for  the
time  being.   It's  not like you're hiding  something  from  the
audience  or whatever, it was just a decision we made.   But  you
did  see  reports -- whether they're true or  not  --  Government
reports about aliens.

Lazar:
Yeah.

Knapp:
What were the reports?

Lazar:
There  were photographs of aliens.  There were  autopsy  reports.
There was really a wealth of information.

Knapp:
What did they look like?

Lazar:
The typical "grey."  I hate to say that, like anyone knows what a
typical  grey is.  It's a creature, probably three and a half  to
four feet tall, a large hairless head, black, slanted eyes,  long
arms, very thin-looking.  I don't know how else I would  describe
them.

Knapp:
What  does  an autopsy report look like?  What's included  in  an
autopsy report that you said you read?

Lazar:
The reason I call it an autopsy report is I saw the carcass -- it
was obviously a dead alien -- carcass cut up and it was all  dark
inside  like  it  had an iron base.  The reason  I  say  iron  is
because  it was very dark blood or whatever.  I'm not  a  doctor,
but  it  seemed to be one large organ in the body as  opposed  to
identifiable heart and lungs and that sort of thing, but just one
gooey mess in it.

Knapp:
What  did the report say?  It had pictures; it had to  have  some
words:  "Here's Exhibit A, an alien"?

Lazar:
Essentially  so!  They had weights and densities of  the  organs,
said  there  were no conclusions drawn, but it was just  a  basic
description of what the person who was cutting open the body saw.

Knapp:
Say where they came from?

Lazar:
Yeah,  in one of the reports it said they came from Reticulum  4,
was what it said.

Knapp:
Where is that?  Any idea?

Lazar:
[Lazar laughs.]
Well, I'm told it's a star system in Zeta Reticuli.  Reticulum is
the constellation.

And by "Reticulum 4," they meant the fourth planet out from  that
sun.

In  the  same reports, we were identified --  instead  of  saying
Earth,  we were identified as "Sol 3," meaning the  third  planet
out from our sun.

Knapp:
Now  you've  read a lot of UFO material.  Do  you  find  yourself
mixing what you've read and what you've learned from up there?

Lazar:
No,  that's why I stay away from the UFO researchers  and  things
like  that.  I really don't want to be associated with  that.   I
don't research the stuff.  It's interesting to read, but no,  I'm
not mixing anything that I've read into this stuff.

Knapp:
We were just talking about the UFO field in general, and you feel
a little reluctant to get mixed up in it, although you ARE  right
now.

Lazar:
Unfortunately, yeah.

Knapp:
Why the reluctance?

Lazar:
I  don't  know.  There are so MANY  stories  circulating  around.
Everyone has their own view.  Each UFO researcher says they  have
the  right  story.  And essentially, I don't want  to  side  with
anyone  because I don't know where that information's come  from,
though  they  do all have the basic story:  you know,  there  ARE
alien crafts here; how they got here is, probably aliens  brought
them here, unless we really have a neat setup with the UPS.

There's   just   so  many  different  factions   of   them   [UFO
researchers],  and  they all kind of war between  each  other;  I
really don't want to get associated with them.

Knapp:
Before  you  got  into the program at S-4,  though,  you  had  an
interest  in  UFOs.  It must be hard for people to  swallow  that
here's a guy who has an interest in it and he gets hired into the
program.

Lazar:
Well, there was a very brief time there I had sent out resumes to
several  places,  and I wanted to get back  into  the  scientific
field  again.   Almost simultaneously, I met John Lear  and  read
some  of  his  material.  And initially, I thought  he  was  just
absolutely  crazy.  But apparently, he did have a good source  of
information  because,  as it turns out, some of  the  information
that he had I actually had hands-on experience with.

Knapp:
But  your  regard for UFOs in general:  As a scientist,  did  you
think there was something to it?

Lazar:
Absolutely not.

Knapp:
Absolutely nothing?

Lazar:
No.  I would have stood on that 'til the day I died.

Knapp:
Many  of the people who have been calling are UFO groups  or  UFO
researchers  who have demanded that you talk to them:  We've  got
to talk to this guy; we want to give him a lot more publicity  so
he stays alive; we want him to give us information so that we can
further  check out his background, etc.; we want to protect  him;
we want to help him.

You've resisted.  You've done this program; you've done a  couple
of  reports  with  us; and you've done a radio show  or  two;  in
general,  you've  resisted going into the UFO  circuit.   Why  is
that?

Lazar:
Just like I mentioned before:  I just don't want to be associated
with those guys.

And  how many people are you going to open up your background  to
and let them run rampant through it?  I mean, private detectives,
every UFO group in the world wants to do that!  The idea was  for
me to release the information, essentially to protect myself  and
take  some of the heat off.  And I've done that.  And that's  all
that needs to be done, really.

Knapp:
Certain  UFO researchers claim they've been  getting  information
from  you all along; you've been leaking stuff to them; and  that
they've  read these reports that verify the information.   You've
been working with UFO groups while you were in the program at S-
4?

Lazar:
Not UFO groups.  I did mention a couple of things to some people.
That's all I'm gonna say.

Knapp:
Okay.   In essence, were you breaking your vows that you made  to
the Government?

Lazar:
Yeah.

Knapp:
And  why  did you feel that was necessary?  I mean, you  took  an
oath, didn't you?

Lazar:
Yeah.  But look at the magnitude of what was going on.  I believe
that  some  of the technology -- maybe all of the  technology  --
should be kept secret, until we have a handle on everything.  But
certainly, the overview of what happened just cannot be a  secret
from anyone -- not just the American people, but the rest of  the
world.

Let  out  the basic fact that we have these craft,  at  one  time
aliens  did at least visit and drop off something,  however  they
got  here,  that  there was some contact made, and  then  cut  it
short.  You don't need to release the information on the  gravity
generators,  the weapon potential -- which is enormous -- and  so
on.

Knapp:
What could you do with that technology?  Say you took the  flying
disks, the anti-matter reactors, the gravity generators, gave  it
to  Los  Alamos  or Livermore, let  them  examine  the  potential
abilities  of this stuff.  I mean, how would this affect life  on
earth if this stuff was widely available?

Lazar:
And mass-producable?

Knapp:
Yes.

Lazar:
That's  tough  to say.  I mean, you have a  completely  different
mode of travel.  What happens when you can play with time?   That
gets into a really deep philosophical question there.

Knapp:
But I mean, it would change a lot of stuff, change everything.

Lazar:
Oh yeah!  It would change absolutely everything!

Knapp:
Do you think it will ever come out?

Lazar:
Personally, no.

Knapp:
What  do  you  hope happens, both with  yourself  and  with  this
information?

Lazar:
There's been enough thorns put in their toes to where they do try
and release something.

Knapp:
We'll have to have you come back, Bob.  Thanks for joining us.

=================================================================
1209LAZ.UFO

======================================================================

 FILE ORIGINATES FROM:  <<UFONET I>>
          UPLOADED BY:  Tom Mickus
       DATE OF UPLOAD:  JAN/08/1990

======================================================================
======================================================================

 LAZAR9.TXT [   **] Billy Goodman interviewed on the Phone

======================================================================
======================================================================

  NOTE:  Late December, 1989 phone interview between Billy Goodman
         of Las Vegas based KVEG Radio, and Grant Cameron, UFO
         researcher from Winnipeg, Canada.  Goodman is recently
         known for his nightly 3-hr radio program, "Billy Goodman's
         Happening".  Cameron is co-author of the soon to be publicly
         released, "UFOs, MJ-12 & THE GOVERNMENT", a report centering
         around the activities of a prominent Penn State President.

=======================================================================
=======================================================================


  <CAMERON>: "I wanted to quickly ask you about this Mr. Lazar,
              you've had this guy on your show a number of times?

  <GOODMAN>: "I certainly have yes."

  <CAMERON>: "What's your gut feeling on this guy?"

  <GOODMAN>: "My gut feeling?"

  <CAMERON>: "Ya."

  <GOODMAN>: "He's telling the truth."

  <CAMERON>: "Is that right?"

  <GOODMAN>: "Oh, ya.  I probably shouldn't say that word - telling
              truth.  As far as I'm concerned, what he has said and
              he has been on my show twice, and I've talked about it
              wide open and nobody has disputed it.  I have to go by
              the...nobody has disputed it.  It's been all over the
              west coast.  My show goes into ten states.  If people
              had any desire to dispute it they could have.  No one
              has.  Other people have confirmed it.  Some people say,
              "Ya they know about it".  They are saying it very non-
              chalant."

  <CAMERON>: "You have other people who have worked there?"

  <GOODMAN>: "They are very nonchalant saying they know there is
              activity there."

  <CAMERON>: "Some of your tapes are circulating around, and a lot of
              researchers are now working on this case."

  <GOODMAN>: "Terrific.  Let them circulate and let them contact me
              personally and we can go from there, but you've called
              me when I'm in the middle of about 9 different things.
              I'm producing a special.  You talk about a tape that is
              going to circulate.  I'll probably have the best show of
              the entire year coming up New Years Eve.  I'm going to
              have the Best of Bob Lazar, the Best of Bill Cooper, and
              the Best of Virgil Armstrong.  This is going to be a tape
              that the world is going to want.  All of their inside
              information."

  <CAMERON>: "Is there anyway I can get a copy of this tape?"

  <GOODMAN>: "I can give you a number.  It's area code 702-564-4404.
              I call the man Rodger the Dodger, but his name is Roger.
              And he tapes every one of my Happenings.  He has copies
              of everyone of my Happenings going all the way back to
              August.  He can run down who we have had on, basically
              what was discussed, what really outstanding information
              was revealed.  He has it all down pretty good - more so
              that I have.  So you are a UFO researcher?"

  <CAMERON>: "We're dealing in a paper that deals with a very high
              ranking Navy person that we are going to expose.  It
              will be published in 30 to 60 days."

  <GOODMAN>: "Why are you going to expose him?"

  <CAMERON>: "He's former President of Penn State."

  <GOODMAN>: "But why do you want to expose him?"

  <CAMERON>: "We want to prove there is something to this."

  <GOODMAN>: "Great.  Oh there's something to it my friend.  What are
              you talking about.  We had over 200 people up in the
              middle of the desert that saw it."

  <CAMERON>: "You were at the test?  You were on the Special?"

  <GOODMAN>: "That's where I was."

  <CAMERON>: "On the KLAS Special?"

  <GOODMAN>: "That was me.  You can imagine what we were doing up there.
              We had over 200 people.  You saw the busload of people.
              We are talking about a lot of listeners that don't imagine
              things.  I'm talking about doctors and lawyers.  We had
              policeman there too.  There's no fabrication here.  Every-
              body saw it."

  <CAMERON>: "Have you done any pressing to get any statements from
              anybody?  From Groom Lake or Nellis?"

  <GOODMAN>: "I've had them on my show.  They're on tape with what they
              saw.  I've had callers policeman say, "I can't say anymore
              but I was there and I saw it."  It's all over the tapes.
              As far as written form, no.  I don't do that kind of thing."

  <CAMERON>: "I was meaning the officials.  They must be denying this?"

  <GOODMAN>: "Well of course they're denying it.  Well theirs no denying
              it.  No one's denying a thing.  What are you talking about?
              There has not been one denial.  We had Senator Bryant on
              here - the Senator of Nevada.  He didn't deny it.  He says
              he can't talk about it.  That's what their answer is.  The
              Undersecretary of Defence said its too Top Secret to even
              discuss what's going on up there.  Your talking about an
              area where everything goes on.  Anything goes on there.
              Have you got my office number (gives it).  If you want to
              do an interview - some inside information or something.
              It's all happening here - there's no question about it.
              I guess you're getting the tapes.  This New Year's Eve
              thing will be phenomenal."

              "Lazar has been on at least two times.  Maybe once more
               where he called in.  He describes the UFO.  He describes
               touching them.  He describes how many there are.  What
               do they look like inside.  How their made.  How they get
               here.  I mean its phenomenal.  You call the office and
               we'll do an interview and put the whole thing in pers-
               pective."



============================ End of File =======================================


=============================================================================
=      Directory Listing of <<UFONET>> Computer Bulletin Board Systems      =
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<<UFONET #>>     Board Name            System         Data Phone    Baud
Net/Node         Location              Operator       Remarks       Hours
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<<UFONET I>>     THE CRUCIBLE          Tom            416-237-1204  12/96 HST
(1:250/440)      Toronto, ON           Mickus         Canadian Hub  Various
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
<<UFONET V>>     Nexus                 Linda          602-526-8025  3/96  HST
(1:304/1)        Flagstaff, AZ         Murphy         American Hub  24 Hrs
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<<UFONET VI>>    LATTICE~              Rod            405-277-3603  3/96  HST
(1:147/66)       Luther, OK            Wilson         14.4 HST      24 Hrs
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<<UFONET VII>>   Astro-Net             David          714-662-2294  3/24
(1:103/903)      Costa Mesa, CA        Rice                         24 Hrs
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<<UFONET IX>>    Radio Free Milwaukee  Pete           414-351-1823  3/96  HST
(1:154/414)      River Hills, WI       Porro          Multi-line    24 Hrs
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<<UFONET XII>>   Studio PC             Ralph          813-862-8850  3/96
(1:377/2)        Port Richey, FL       LoBianco                     24 Hrs
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
<<UFONET XIII>>  The Briefcase BBS     Mike           316-652-9202  3/24
(1:291/3)        Wichita, KS           Holcomb                      24 Hrs
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
<<UFONET XIV>>   Adventures Unlimited  Ray            303-493-8162  3/24
(1:306/15)       Ft. Collins, CO       Randolph                     24 Hrs
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
<<UFONET XV>>    BXT-1761              David          512-298-1761  3/24
(1:136/402)      Del Rio, TX           Winters                      24 Hrs
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
<<UFONET XVI>>   The Arts Rap          Bob            716-223-7874  3/24
(1:260/234)      Rochester, NY         Branch                       24 Hrs
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Robert Lazar Court Case Results
_______________________________

  Las Vegas Physicist Robert Lazar has sucessfully obtained his W-2 form
from Naval Intelligence which verifies his formal employment with them but
this isn't helping his court case much....
  Originally scheduled for August 6, his sentencing was postponed to August
13th and once more delayed until August 17th.  Lazar, with no known criminal
record, could have been sentenced to up to 6 years in the Nevada State
Prison.  Lazar first gained attention by publicly disclosing claims of his
one-time involvement in UFO/ET projects in the reputed S-4 section of
"Dreamland" [aka, The Skunk Works, Area 51] in the Nevada desert, a highly
protected test site of the U.S.' advanced military craft.  Lazar says he was
hired by the military to replace a member of the crew which was working on
a extraterrestrial spacecraft.  The Physicist whom Lazar was replacing was
allegedly killed in a nuclear mishap resulting from a bomb test utilizing
the fuel "115" used by one of the extraterrestrial ships.  Lazar left the
program out of disgust over the plodding pace of the program.
  Then trouble with the law began.  As a result of a plea bargain with the
  Clark County District Attorney, Lazar pleaded guilty to one charge of
pandering, for admitting that he set up a computer, programmed the software,
and helped install a security system for an operating brothel in Clark
County.  While prostitution is legal in some areas of Nevada, it is illegal
in Clark County.
  Lazar was given 6 months probation for the charge of pandering but for
some reason, his passpost was taken away from him and never returned.
Early on, Lazar was being charged with having manufactured methamphetimines
but this charge was thrown out of court during the preliminary hearings.

-> Virtual Reality Info. BBS         <---- offline 8/91
   206.323.7578 - 14,400 BPS
--
+---------------------+------------------------------------------------------+
|   Nick Humphries    | Having kids is hereditary, if your parents don't     |
| [e-mail] | have any, chances are that you won't have any either |
+---------------------+------------------------------------------------------+


--  I've just sent all my files on the Bob Lazar interviews of 1989 to this newsgroup since it is now exactly four years since he did them. If anyone has noticed any inconsistencies and u-turns in his story over the past four years, mail me or post the details to this newsgroup since I don't think his story has changed at all over the past four years.
+---------------------+------------------------------------------------------+
|   Nick Humphries    | Having kids is hereditary, if your parents don't     |
| [e-mail] | have any, chances are that you won't have any either |
+---------------------+------------------------------------------------------+